It is still legal in the United States to employ Capital Punishment or the Death Penalty as punishment for a crime. The ethical and social question: Is it a moral justice to be carried out or is it wrong? Furthermore, should we move to abolish it?

These are questions which have been apart of the debate on this for years. My answer to the above questions: No, it is not moral and yes it should be abolished. Through the system, countless people were tried and convicted for crimes they did not committ including some even after the advent of DNA analysis. Therefore, sometimes the legality of a phrase like "beyond a reasonable doubt" is not so reasonable within the evidence as innocent people were placed on Death Row. These are instances where justice was not carried out and I'm sure you have heard of some of them in your localities.

If we examine this issue from the purely abstract prospect of logical morality, we can also see it is not right. The age old phrase "two wrongs do not make a right" applies to the Death Penalty. Taking the life of someone (even if they ARE guilty) does not bring back your loved one nor is it right to do what was done to your loved one. It places us on the same level as the criminal because although we ourselves are not doing it, it is still taking the life another human being and is therefore wrong.

I also remember hearing that it actually isn't a crime deterent nor is it cheaper than life in prison for those who committ these terrible crimes. I believe that individuals who are guilty of these terrible things should be locked away in prison for the rest of their lives while having extensive psychotherapy to determine preexisting Psychological issues that may have led to the committing such a crime.

If anything, we should be advocates for creating safe communities and attempting to instill the basic capacity to understand other peoples emotions. If you look at the profile of many criminals in jail, they tend to be male and have anti-social personalities/Disorder. The DSM or Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders would describe these men as out of touch with peoples feelings to the point of allowing them to commit crimes without the ability to think about or feel the pain of what they are doing. Essentially, it is at first an ignorance of basic social customs that can range to severe psychopathology that allows crimes to happen.

If we could reach these men (and to less extent some women) we could hopefully reduce the number of homicides in the United States to begin with. However, I still say the Death Penalty should be abolished because it is vengeful, cruel/unusual punishment, and is not economically better due to large and drudged out trials that seem to detract a great deal of tax payers money. If anything, we should seek to help people with Psychological issues to deal with them before it devolves into a Psychopathology that leads to horrific crimes in the first places.

That's my opinion......what do you all think?

Interesting topic..and I just had this discussion yesterday at work with a very liberal Democrat who happens to believe in the death penalty.

I agree that justice is flawed...and we now have technology that can prove the flaws...making the gray zones even grayer. So, until we solve some of the issues of police misconduct, lab error, DNA theft...etc. we cannot have a death penalty in a moral and just society. I don't know that it would ever be truely possible but I would like to think so. Even life in prison for a crime you didn't commit is a travesty.

I don't believe you can rehabilitate anti-social personalities.
I don't think you can grow a conscience.
I think we need safer more open prisons for the lesser offenders.
I do think drug addicts can be rehabilitated but it is very very expensive.

Psychologically speaking you can at least help those with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. For example, helping them to finally get in touch with their feelings. One major thing I've heard that is being done now is that criminals speak to those people they have hurt and is apart of the therapy. It not only helps bring closure and healing to the victim of the crime, but also in a way makes the criminal begin to feel the pain and increase his or her emotional awareness. However, as I said, prevention of crime through Counseling those who have social deficits earlier will hopefully inhibit the possibility of future crime as well as making their life and those around them better.

I just saw on the news that Music Therapy is increasingly employed to help people who are Autistic. They begin to slowly interact with the music and it aids in helping them become more self-aware in the process of them just thinking they like the music. It's all about enhancing social awareness and then actual positive social behavior that builds healthy and happy relationships. These things will ultimately help reduce crime because when people lack empathy and basic social awareness, that is when things become a problem. Especially if there were prior issues in the home that induced these social difficulties.

If I may, I highly suggest the book "Social Intelligence: The New Science of Human Relationships" by Daniel Goleman. There is a section where he talks exclusively about how we can reduce crime by preventative social psychology that stops people from progressively becoming worse.

I don't care about rehabilitation for hard core criminals. A heinous act such as murder deserves life in prison without a glimmer of hope for parole..no money wasted on rehab, etc. Lock them away & forget about them..as if they were dead. Similar to the dungeons in the old days.
That is my stance. I don't have hope or compassion for anti-social personalities if they are molesting chidren & murdering innocent people. I'd rather have my tax money spent on building more prisons...less comfortable ones..you know, without televisions, windows & no cell mate to socialize with. etc. If prison really was hell that would be deterrent enough surely?

That might be true. However, many of these places called "Correctional" facilities ironically don't seem to be correcting much of anything. It's unfortunate because youth who have led astray on the wrong path could be helped BEFORE they become the seemingly and impossibly unreachable by being bounced back and forth in the prision system. This is what perpetuates a prison culture of violence that lacks any form of emotional or social awareness of others much less their own. As I said, we can focus on prevention to reduce the #'s, but also reach out to the youth have started on the wrong path. When real counsel and positive change happens at the so called "Correctional" places, then there will be more hope.

My sentiments are directed at hardcore criminals..those that would be candidates for the death penalty.

"It's unfortunate because youth who have led astray on the wrong path could be helped BEFORE they become the seemingly and impossibly unreachable by being bounced back and forth in the prision system."

..I think that's more commonly referred to as good parenting.

"When real counsel and positive change happens at the so called "Correctional" places, then there will be more hope."

are you referring to teenagers? juvenile detention centers?
If so, then an education would be the most powerful deterrent against future offenses. I don't know what is offered in these places as far as that goes.
What do you mean exactly by 'real counsel & positve change'?

By Counsel, I mean properly trained Psychologists who are actually working with the younger people to make necessary social and behavioral changes. The positive change comes from caring about the youth who have already started down the wrong road. If we can change their attitude and behavior to keep them out of jail as law abiding citizens, I feel that would be positive change both on a personal and societal level. Meaning reduced crime of all forms and more Psychologically healthy people.

And yes, I do mean Correctional Facilities for young people. Maybe they only committed one or two crimes that were not too serious. However, they were placed here to ensure that their behavioral and cognitive processes were changed so that they get back on the right path. As you said, being a good parent is an obvious given with instilling the value of people and their property. Further, as you stated, the education is also paramount in reducing crime as youth are preparing to enter to College and the work force as well. Both of these things: Strong family/good parenting and solid/beneficial education are preventative. But for those criminals who will not change, well, prison for life does seem the only option.

"By Counsel, I mean properly trained Psychologists who are actually working with the younger people to make necessary social and behavioral changes. The positive change comes from caring about the youth who have already started down the wrong road."

I suspect psychologists & counsellors are already in those facilities are they not? Personally, I don't believe in the long term benefit of pyscho analysis..it's a pseudo science IMO. The most constructive thing you can do with a 'damaged' person is give them tools ( an education) & along with that comes confidence so they can see themselves as having a 'place' in the world. I don't think figuring out why someone participates in destructive behaviour is helpful. Most troubled kids already know why they are like they are....t

The death penalty should be abolished, more prisons should be built & juvenile delinquents should be forced into college with tax payers money. If they don't go..they go to prison. They must pay back a % of the funding once employed.

The only problem is that prisons are already over-crowded and it will cost a great deal of tax payers money to build on and add more. I guess that's why I'm so passionate about the prevenative social and psychological measures that can be taken to reduce the chances of criminality. Thus, hopefully bringing down the number of people in jail. There is also the legal prospect where you have harsher laws for things that contribute to over-crowding.

Ultimately, we both agree that it should be abolished and life in prison sentences would be better.

Everytime I hear "Death Penalty" this is what I think.

That's very true. Revenge is a derivative of hate and anger. To me, it doesn't bring closure, but rather brings more hurt.

"Corrective facilities" are misnamed. They were never intended to rehabilitate, but to PUNISH evildoers.

Having said that, I am pro death penalty.

Edited: I'm glad to see new people respond to the thread :) Feel free to build on your opinions whether in favor or opposing.

EVILDOERS ...that always makes me giggle.

I often wonder : WHY DO WE SAVE PEOPLE WHO KILL PEOPLE, ONLY TO GIVE THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TO KILL MORE PEOPLE? :banghead:

I don't think of it as 'saving' them it's just that if killing if fundamentally wrong then it's fundamentally wrong. You can't say it's ok for 'this' group of people to kill but not ok for 'that' group of people to kill.
Killers shouldn't be saved ...just not killed.

:agreed:

I agree that there is no justification for allowing Capital Punishment to still happen.

At the sametime, it is important to Psychologically evaluate these individuals to better understand what dynamics allowed them to do what they did. These Criminal Psychologists end up helping police gain a broader understanding and hopefully aid in reducing these horrific crimes in the future.

Life without any chance of parole.....that's good enough. They will never be able to enter society again.

If killing is fundamentally wrong, then I guess all of our soldiers in this war and all past wars are doing the wrong thing. All of our policeman are also doing the wrong thing when they kill someone in the line of duty, if killing is fundamentally wrong. I'm sorry, but I think killing in self-defense is justified. In my opinion when someone chooses to kill out of rage or meanness or for just no reason, we as a society have a right and an obligation to protect ourselves out of self defense from those type of people. :2centsworth:

You raise a good point. Killing in self-defense in a 'situation' where you are in imminent danger of losing your life..of course, you must protect yourself. But this thread is discussing the death penalty which stems from an 'eye for an eye' mentality. When a man is standing before a judge in shackles waiting to hear his fate...how is he an imminent danger to anyone at that point? He has been captured, incarcerated & removed from society. So who, at that point, has any justification in saying "that man/woman is trying to kill me right now..I must protect myself..he must be killed "?
If a policeman kills a man in the line of duty purely out of self-defense...what choice did he have? If a young man signs up & is sent to fight in a futile war to kill...he has no choice. The suits in the Oval office have blood on their hands..the soldier doesn't. I agree with you that society does have a right and an obligation to protect itself ..that is why we have jails. What kind of a message does a country send out to it's young people when it kills people.
The US keeps some very 'interesting' company in the world with it's attitude towards vengeance.

Oh my goodness, I truly wished that it could be as alot of people against the death penalty are saying. I wish that just putting the wrongdoers in jail would be a deterrant to future violence. But unfortunately, that is not the case. Not only does just imprisoning these people not only not deter anyone in the future from doing these things, the people that originally committed the crime does the same or even worse if they are ever released. And the ones who do have to live out their natural lives incarcerated, continues to live, albeit not a great life, but a life all the same. And in alot of cases they live better than our soldiers who are somewhere dying to protect our country.What a shame. And what is the point of keeping these people in a place to just exist? Exist for what purpose? We could use the money and resourses we waste on their meaningless existance and put it to good use helping the victims families or doing things to try to guide the way before someone chooses that evil path. We have less executions that we did in the past, and I don't see how that is better for society? Violence and murders have not decreased in any way. They realize that they will never to pay the ultimate price and some even live better in prison than out. I say, they chose the behavior, now they must face the consequences of their actions.

here...here...great post...

Last time I checked, Thou Shall Not Kill did not have an asterisk next to it.

Again, tell that to our soldiers that are protecting us then. Sorry, i shed no tears for people that take innocent lives. I cry for our soldiers and for our innocent victims and their families. :banghead:

The DP does not deter these terrible crimes either.

I think it is a matter of making sure that these people never enter society again. If a person can be proven to have committed the crime beyond reasonable doubt, then they should be never allowed to enter society again. Based on what I've read, those who are capable of such atrocities lack the empathy and impulse control that is required to control and understand basic behaviors/emotions.

I am totally with you on this one. To me, not going after the SOB terrorists that took so many of OUR innocent, beautiful lives on 9/11 would make us DAM* fools. This belief in "ohhhhhh they are people too" makes me sick, because they don't even care about blowing themselves, or their own children to smitherines, in order to kill us, or others. I live in a home with guns, and thankfully so, because if my home, children, myself or husband were ever violated, on OUR property, we would at least have the means to try and protect ourselves. I grew up and have been shooting guns since the age of about 6, and it is all about education, and respect, just like with anything. Just like with a Murderer, or rapist, or child molester, most likely, those victims did not have the means to protect themselves, and how is ok to put the criminal, at ANY time, ahead of the victims rights??? I believe in an eye for an eye and if anyone believes that people like Manson, Dahmer, etc can be "rehabilitated" it is just a scary thought to me.

Yellin, I agree that some people can not be rehabilitated. Some Psychological disorders are so severe and persistent that these individuals must be institutionalized for the remainder of their lives. Those individuals you mentioned all showed varying Psychotic symptoms that drove them to do horrific things. Even if the individual could be proven to be legally insane by legal jargon, that does not mean they should not have to serve a life sentence without parole. I've described why I'm against the use of the death penalty above.

Thanks for your replies to these threads, Yellin. I'm sorry if I seemed a little too passionate about these subjects. I'm fascinated by political and sociological subjects.

I love to discuss politics, ethics, social justice, humanitarian and evironmental issues. I just know how hard it is to do so with friends. It's true..I have something I want to say..and I want to tell the world..WAKE UP BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE..but I like the diversion of just having fun. So I've kept out of politics because this isn't the place for my passion. But, dang, it's hard to pass these questions up for someone like me. That being said..I will ring in on the Death Penalty.
I watched the trial of Andrea Yates, the mother who killed her children, on American Justice. I know that this was a polarizing issue..mental illness vs legality. I just think they are two different fields. The justice system deals in the letter of the law..(we've left intent awhile back)..and right and wrong by manmade legal standards. Which can change with the legislature and the current social consciousness of the times. Doctors deal with illness, medicine. The prosecutor isn't a medical doctor, but they call one in to support their hypothesis to prosecute the case. ...now...suddenly, the jury of 12 people just like you and me..have to make a legal decision based on a medical decision that has conflicting testimony. It's too complicated. I would have know ..she's mentally insane, but the I can only go by this letter of the law the judge tells me is my criteria. Then what if she was subsequently given the Death Penalty. To me, as tragic as her situation was, that would have been a horrific injustice. This being the case...I just fill too infallible to take on the role of God...and decide life or death of a human being. Who am I too judge what I do not really understand? It is a God thing with me, I just can't take that power for myself and I don't think we as a nation should either. We can be wrong. We have been wrong. There's injustice in seeking justice, because of human error. Death is final. If in time we find out we have erred, we can't give that life back. I can't do it.

Those were very good points. It is difficult when law and mental health collide in the courtroom. I remember hearing about various women over the last few years murdering their children. They initially had post-partum depression that evolved into a post-partum psychosis, this is essentially when someone loses touch with reality and can lead to criminal behavior. It's very sad because these women could have been given the proper psychological counseling before it became more of a serious disorder.

I think some people will need to be institutionalized in a mental healthcare facility for the rest of their life. In fact, in a class I'm taking, we just learned that the primary criteria for being committed is when you become a danger either to yourself or someone else. Unfortunately, that knowledge happens too late in these sad cases with women with post-partum psychosis or men with severe Anti-Social Personality Disorder/Impulse Control issues.

Hopefully, with time, we will be able to more effectively care for people with mental disorders that can lead to these tragedies.

I should have edited my post. feel too fallible..not fill to infallible...but dang, if that doesn't make my point about not being omniscient. Some people on here express themselves so well and write correctly, and I really don't have that level of education.

Parsimmon, your post was very eloquent and thought-provoking. Don't be so negative or hard on yourself. We all spell words incorrectly from time to time. The world would be boring if we were perfect. To not be perfect is to be human. Keep on posting, your thoughts are appreciated :)

So those of you that are against the death penalty and feeling it is up to God to handle a life or death situation, do you consider yourself pro-life? Or do the innocent beginning stages of life not really count as a life to be protected, like those of murderers?

"... you can't say it is not okay for one group and it is for another..."

:unsure:

Go_Noles06, I think it is possible to be Pro-Choice and Anti-Death Penalty. I should know because those are my beliefs lol. Anyway, it's all a matter of personal value judgement. Some people ardently believe that Abortion is the same as murder. I vehemently disagree with that and do not believe one can equate murder as a crime to a woman who decides to have an Abortion. Therefore, in my mind, they are two totally different issues that require different analysis and rationality.

Many people point out logical fallacy when you aren't pro-choice/pro-DP or pro-life/against the DP. But I strongly believe they are so different that lack of logic can't be made into argument as to why one persons convictions on the issues are wrong. We all will have a variant opinion and look at different evidence which leads us to our own conclusion.

I, too, think they are completely different. I am for the death penalty, but pro-life. It does seem conflicting to agree with one and not the other, especially giving the argument that life is NOT ours to take, as someone pointed out in an earlier post. I think it all boils down to personal conviction. It is not something that you can teach, you have to feel in your own heart that which is right and wrong. I have found that personal conviction can be gained or changed with age and life experiences. Add that with a little education and research and you will develope a passion for what you believe. And perhaps then, you have the ability to influence....

I agree with your comments ^^

I used to be for the death Penalty until I took a course on Social Issues. When we had to have debates, I was astonished at the real statistics of life w/o parole vs. DP trial cost, the true level of crime deterent, and the intelligent moral argument of the individuals debating against it. I tend to be stubborn about my beliefs lol, but this research and debate changed my mind 100% on the issue.

We basically did research, debates, and even mock congress sessions on how we would handle major social issues of the day. It really brought my views into focus and helped me to better articulate and argue my stances. I definitely encourage anyone in school to take a Governmental/Political type of course. It will allow you to gain knowledge of what stats say and draw wisdom from life experiences of those who are affected by the issues themselves go through. :)

Great Post.

Diane Rehm is talking about the death penalty this morning at 10am Eastern on NPR...if anyone is interested.

I'm am 100% totally pro-life, which means anti-abortion and anti-death penalty.

Plus keeping criminals alive is the real punishment. If they just die, it's not much of one. Others, however, may have a chance to repent and change their ways and make it right. Even if they murdered somebody, I still don't think it should be that way. I really don't believe in karma, I believe in second chances. Part of it is attributed to my faith though, as I believe that everybody is equal in God's eyes, even those who have done bad things, and it is not our place to decide who should live and who should die (it's His job).

And that's my two cents :jmo:

Thanks for letting us know, ElliottCrazy.

I guess these social issues like the DP are the most fascinating to most people. Many other political ideologies are mere theory and don't apply as greatly to our existence. Overall, I really like the discussions we have had amongst those who have participated. Whether you are more liberal, conservative, or whatever, it is good to have a chorus of voices bring balance and hopefully closure to longstanding social problems. Despite the polarization of our nation as of late, I'll be the eternal optimist and say that things will turn out alright in the end.

AND I posted this in the wrong thread. LOL. I feel like an idiot now! *Runs away.*