Title: Food For Thought
Description: A MUST READ!
Benito - March 28, 2008 03:30 PM (GMT)
SoulMusicRocks - March 28, 2008 06:40 PM (GMT)
I don't understand why that article tries to paint Obama as weak and getting the nomination simply because Republicans want to "sabotage" the nomination. Obama and Clinton are very similar on most policy issues save for a few key differences (especially dealing with foreign policy and finance of campaign). I don't think '08 is really about experience anyway because the type of experience people traditionally associate with a President is not amongst either of the 3 candidates left. Thus, we are left with voting record, vision for the nation, and the judgement with which to carry the U.S. onward.
I won't go further with saying why this candidate is better than the next. What I will say as a Democrat, is that our country can not afford another (at least) 4 long years of the same thing. Benito, I know you are a passionate Clinton supporter and I respect that because we are all entitled to our opinion. I can honestly say that if Obama lost the nomination that after awhile I would support Hillary 100%. Why do you ask? It is because of the grave need for a change in leadership and ideology. While I favor Obama, I could never in good conscious cast my vote for John McCain. It will mean 100 yrs in Iraq, potential war with Iran, and a continuation of disastrous domestic policy that does nothing but promote division.
While I despise Clinton's tactics in this primary/caucus season, the price we pay for more of the same is too great not for Obama supporters to go for Hillary if she got the nomination. Conversely, I would hope Hillary Clinton supporters would do the same for Obama in the situation that he won the nomination. McCain is NOT a moderate. He may have done things the far right does not like, but his voting record speaks volumes about his perpetuation of Bush like politics and policies. It's not about party loyality. It's about unity of ideology that Clinton and Obama supporters essentially share with a Democratic philosophy and Progressive leadership that changes our nation for the better and restores its integrity.
So yeah, I would vote for Hillary in the general. I would Clinton supporters would do the same for Obama.
Benito - March 29, 2008 02:24 PM (GMT)
SMR, sorry, I won't support anybody other than Hillary Clinton. I don't want another bumbler, i.e, a greenhorn, a tyro (like Bush) piling on disaster after disaster on this great nation.
SoulMusicRocks - March 30, 2008 01:51 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Benito @ Mar 29 2008, 09:24 AM) |
| SMR, sorry, I won't support anybody other than Hillary Clinton. I don't want another bumbler, i.e, a greenhorn, a tyro (like Bush) piling on disaster after disaster on this great nation. |
Obama is a disaster and bumbler, Benito? That seems quite presumptuous to me. While I respect the right to your opinion I will have to strongly disagree. Especially in trying to make someone of a completely different background, ideological belief, and life story an extension of George W. Bush. If anything, I thought this was a statement Democrats would be making toward John McCain and not a fellow party member. McCain aligns with many policies of Bush on things like the War and tax cuts for the wealthy. To me, that is an extension of Bush via policy and politics. Obama has been and continues to represent a vastly contrasted alternative to those failed policies and politics.
I've come to realize that spin really means everything. In one report I read how crossover Republicans were voting for Hillary en masse in Texas by Limbaugh's command on his radio show because they feel Hillary is more beatable in November. Then you have the article you posted which basically says Obama's entire candidacy is based on the Republican agenda to make him the nominee. Who do we believe with all of the spin out there? We believe the spin which puts our candidate in the most favorable light. It's tough to verbalize that, but it is the truth.
Benito - March 30, 2008 05:33 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Mar 30 2008, 08:51 AM) |
| QUOTE (Benito @ Mar 29 2008, 09:24 AM) | | SMR, sorry, I won't support anybody other than Hillary Clinton. I don't want another bumbler, i.e, a greenhorn, a tyro (like Bush) piling on disaster after disaster on this great nation. |
Obama is a disaster and bumbler, Benito? That seems quite presumptuous to me. While I respect the right to your opinion I will have to strongly disagree.
|
The point I'm raising is that the stakes ARE HIGH for me to make a leap of faith and put my eggs in the Obama basket. I liken him to be the let x in algebra. In fact, I view voting for him as solving a quadratic equation, with x and y unknowns--as in no concrete track record--meaning actions of import, not words.
SoulMusicRocks - March 30, 2008 10:25 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Benito @ Mar 30 2008, 12:33 PM) |
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Mar 30 2008, 08:51 AM) | | QUOTE (Benito @ Mar 29 2008, 09:24 AM) | | SMR, sorry, I won't support anybody other than Hillary Clinton. I don't want another bumbler, i.e, a greenhorn, a tyro (like Bush) piling on disaster after disaster on this great nation. |
Obama is a disaster and bumbler, Benito? That seems quite presumptuous to me. While I respect the right to your opinion I will have to strongly disagree.
|
The point I'm raising is that the stakes ARE HIGH for me to make a leap of faith and put my eggs in the Obama basket. I liken him to be the let x in algebra. In fact, I view voting for him as solving a quadratic equation, with x and y unknowns--as in no concrete track record--meaning actions of import, not words.
|
The '08 Election does have great significance for people. It will make a major difference in peoples lives financially and socially in general. The stakes, as you said, are very high. That is why after my research I feel confident that Obama is not some random wildcard nor an outlier which will adversely effect our country. He is the essential antithesis of Bush and the notion of being bought by Lobbyists and Special Interests. Imagine a President who is truly indebted to the American people and not oil/pharmecutical (SP?) companies or other nations! That's what I feel he can and will bring to the table.
I've noticed something interesting. With all of the mudslinging happening WITHIN the Democratic party, John McCain is getting a free pass. Why has he not been taken to task on the issues of his candidacy? It's because of this rift between Clinton and Obama that continues to drive up negatives for Obama and Clinton while McCain simply coasts. As a Clinton or Obama supporter, do any of us find that good or advantagious? No. I can't pretend that I haven't gotten into heated debates and arguments with Clinton supporters because I have. But.....what I'm starting to realize is that for the good of the country, it is time to be more civil and let this play out fair and square. Maybe instead of Clinton and Obama's camps fighting, we could start to take Republicans and John McCain to task for his policies and past? This will help Obama OR Clinton in November because both sides will rally behind both in making the case why a DEMOCRAT (either or) would be better than McCain in the White House :)
rooney - March 30, 2008 10:41 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Mar 30 2008, 06:25 PM) |
| QUOTE (Benito @ Mar 30 2008, 12:33 PM) | | QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Mar 30 2008, 08:51 AM) | | QUOTE (Benito @ Mar 29 2008, 09:24 AM) | | SMR, sorry, I won't support anybody other than Hillary Clinton. I don't want another bumbler, i.e, a greenhorn, a tyro (like Bush) piling on disaster after disaster on this great nation. |
Obama is a disaster and bumbler, Benito? That seems quite presumptuous to me. While I respect the right to your opinion I will have to strongly disagree.
|
The point I'm raising is that the stakes ARE HIGH for me to make a leap of faith and put my eggs in the Obama basket. I liken him to be the let x in algebra. In fact, I view voting for him as solving a quadratic equation, with x and y unknowns--as in no concrete track record--meaning actions of import, not words.
|
The '08 Election does have great significance for people. It will make a major difference in peoples lives financially and socially in general. The stakes, as you said, are very high. That is why after my research I feel confident that Obama is not some random wildcard nor an outlier which will adversely effect our country. He is the essential antithesis of Bush and the notion of being bought by Lobbyists and Special Interests. Imagine a President who is truly indebted to the American people and not oil/pharmecutical (SP?) companies or other nations! That's what I feel he can and will bring to the table.
I've noticed something interesting. With all of the mudslinging happening WITHIN the Democratic party, John McCain is getting a free pass. Why has he not been taken to task on the issues of his candidacy? It's because of this rift between Clinton and Obama that continues to drive up negatives for Obama and Clinton while McCain simply coasts. As a Clinton or Obama supporter, do any of us find that good or advantagious? No. I can't pretend that I haven't gotten into heated debates and arguments with Clinton supporters because I have. But.....what I'm starting to realize is that for the good of the country, it is time to be more civil and let this play out fair and square. Maybe instead of Clinton and Obama's camps fighting, we could start to take Republicans and John McCain to task for his policies and past? This will help Obama OR Clinton in November because both sides will rally behind both in making the case why a DEMOCRAT (either or) would be better than McCain in the White House :)
|
:goodpost:
Benito - March 31, 2008 03:33 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Mar 30 2008, 05:25 PM) |
| QUOTE (Benito @ Mar 30 2008, 12:33 PM) | | QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Mar 30 2008, 08:51 AM) | | QUOTE (Benito @ Mar 29 2008, 09:24 AM) | | SMR, sorry, I won't support anybody other than Hillary Clinton. I don't want another bumbler, i.e, a greenhorn, a tyro (like Bush) piling on disaster after disaster on this great nation. |
Obama is a disaster and bumbler, Benito? That seems quite presumptuous to me. While I respect the right to your opinion I will have to strongly disagree.
|
The point I'm raising is that the stakes ARE HIGH for me to make a leap of faith and put my eggs in the Obama basket. I liken him to be the let x in algebra. In fact, I view voting for him as solving a quadratic equation, with x and y unknowns--as in no concrete track record--meaning actions of import, not words.
|
The '08 Election does have great significance for people. It will make a major difference in peoples lives financially and socially in general. The stakes, as you said, are very high. That is why after my research I feel confident that Obama is not some random wildcard nor an outlier which will adversely effect our country. He is the essential antithesis of Bush and the notion of being bought by Lobbyists and Special Interests. Imagine a President who is truly indebted to the American people and not oil/pharmecutical (SP?) companies or other nations! That's what I feel he can and will bring to the table.
I've noticed something interesting. With all of the mudslinging happening WITHIN the Democratic party, John McCain is getting a free pass. Why has he not been taken to task on the issues of his candidacy? It's because of this rift between Clinton and Obama that continues to drive up negatives for Obama and Clinton while McCain simply coasts. As a Clinton or Obama supporter, do any of us find that good or advantagious? No. I can't pretend that I haven't gotten into heated debates and arguments with Clinton supporters because I have. But.....what I'm starting to realize is that for the good of the country, it is time to be more civil and let this play out fair and square. Maybe instead of Clinton and Obama's camps fighting, we could start to take Republicans and John McCain to task for his policies and past? This will help Obama OR Clinton in November because both sides will rally behind both in making the case why a DEMOCRAT (either or) would be better than McCain in the White House :)
|
Hmmm, let me see. . . Absent some detailed background info on Obama (who knows that, because of this lack of vetting, if he is the nominee, a HUGE BOMB falls, courtesy of the Republicans, and gets him indicted, thus causing the Democratic Party a catastrophe) for me to make an informed judgment, I would have to rely on the Buddhist precept of "you are your past, your present is your future"; I would have to rely on second hand reports. For instance, his past is riddled with associations with radical figures. That makes him far, far to the left of the political spectrum. He is not a centrist, his claim of becoming a unifier notwithstanding; unlike Clinton, who knows EXACTLY how to play the game, in order for things to move forward. Including, straddling the fence, if need be. (Which, by the way, explains her vote on the Iraq War Resolution).
SoulMusicRocks - March 31, 2008 08:26 PM (GMT)
Benito (if you don't mind me asking), are you a Democrat, Republican, or Independent?
I'll just agree to disagree.
Benito - April 1, 2008 03:13 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Mar 31 2008, 03:26 PM) |
Benito (if you don't mind me asking), are you a Democrat, Republican, or Independent?
I'll just agree to disagree. |
Dyed-in-the-wool Dem here. But more a centrist--and I abhor extremes. A Hillary supporter to the core. I fight it out with the Obamaniacs at the Huffington Post.
movin2thabeet - April 1, 2008 07:51 PM (GMT)
First off, the campaign for Republicans to vote for Hillary is not spin, it is an open campaign by Rush Limbaugh. Here is one link about it:
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/sit...5107.guest.htmlSecondly, Obama has a lengthy history already built up in his time as a Senator. If you want to learn what the 2 candidates have been doing as Senators and how their approach to governance differs, please check out this in-depth study of their Senate records:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633Also, I just read a somewhat depressing, but very honest and enlightening article by Steven Weber on Huffington Post that I highly recommend:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-weber...tml#postCommentLastly, I'm getting this disturbing feeling that people are treating this presidential contest more like a reality TV show than choosing our next President. It seems that there's a blurring of the lines going on between entertainment and reality. And I mean Reality as in war, sickness, loss of jobs, loss of homes, economy going down the tubes, earth that is warming beyond our capacity to change... I think what we're seeing, in part, is a reaction to a reality that is getting more difficult to face, so we look away, or make games out of reality.
In this information overload age we're living in, where YouTube videos actually create reality, it is getting increasingly difficult for reason and logic to have any room to breathe. Are they simply dispensable? Are we going to continue to allow fear, as usual, to be used as the ultimate trump card?
Not for me, not this time.
SoulMusicRocks - April 1, 2008 10:34 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Benito @ Apr 1 2008, 10:13 AM) |
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Mar 31 2008, 03:26 PM) | Benito (if you don't mind me asking), are you a Democrat, Republican, or Independent?
I'll just agree to disagree. |
Dyed-in-the-wool Dem here. But more a centrist--and I abhor extremes. A Hillary supporter to the core. I fight it out with the Obamaniacs at the Huffington Post.
|
Fair enough. I'm definitely more to the left, but I don't think it is fair to label people as "extreme". This definition seems to be very fluid and means many things to different people. Words like patriotism, justice, and honesty have incredibly divergent meanings that are subjectively altered to fit a persons worldview. I think this maybe half the reason people argue about these abstract ideologies in the first place (including the worn out ideas of what it is to be a Conservative or Liberal in this country).
Who decided that supporting equal rights for Gays/Lesbians was Liberal? Who decided that opposing harsher Gun Control was Conservative? These all seem like very diverse situations which are arbitarily placed on one side or the other. Who knows.
I'm done with arguing with Clinton supporters. I'd rather focus on pushing Undecided voters towards Obama through clearly denoting why he is the best candidate as opposed to trying to prove that through stating why Clinton isn't. It's better to lift your favored candidate up rather than trying to tear the opponent down, IMHO. Save that for debates. Besides, wasn't it Bill Clinton who said "Pick the candidate that makes you hope" or something to that effect? Well, I'm just taking his advice :)
movin2thabeet - April 2, 2008 03:02 AM (GMT)
I completely agree that pegging oneself as 'left' or 'right' or 'liberal' or 'conservative' only serves to keeps us separate from each other and makes it that much harder to find our common ground. In reality, those identifications change over time depending on the cultural climate. What many consider to be 'left' now was not to long ago considered to be' right' of 'center'. I don't see how it serves anyone's greater good to lock oneself up into a fixed ID. Where is there any room for either personal or societal growth there?
Increasingly, I think we're finding a dissolution of those fixed IDs as noted by the preponderance of citizens labeling themselves as 'Independents'. In fact, I'm been watching Sen. Chuck Hagel, a Republican from Nebraska talk about this as he does the rounds on his book tour. He believes the country is moving toward having both a cabinet and maybe even a Presidential ticket that includes both Republicans and Democrats. I love this idea and think he would make an excellent candidate to run as VP with Barack Obama. In fact, Barack has stated that he intends to include Republicans in his cabinet, if elected.
SoulMusicRocks - April 2, 2008 08:20 PM (GMT)
Even better, how about a country with more than one.....I mean two party's.
movin2thabeet - April 2, 2008 08:50 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Apr 2 2008, 01:20 PM) |
| Even better, how about a country with more than one.....I mean two party's. |
One step at a time. In order for all voices to be truly heard in this country, we do need to have a healthy multi-party system. The only way we can get there is through significant campaign finance reform, including public financing, reducing lobbyist influences and instant run-off voting (IRV)
http://www.instantrunoff.com/. And the only way to get campaign finance reform instituted at the federal level, is to vote in a President and Congress that has has loosened enough corporate and big-money interests to make it law. I believe that the only presidential candidate who meets this criteria is Barack Obama.
Meanwhile we can work at the local and state level to support the various campaign finance reforms taking place and make sure to support good local and state candidates with integrity who can stand up for the people over corporations and deep pockets. And make sure and support good third party candidates as change really happens at the ground level up.
For example, here are the number of Green Party Candidates running for major offices in 2008:
(source:
http://www.gp.org/elections/candidates/index.php)• US House of Representatives - 39
• US Senate - 7
• City Council - 8
• State Senate - 4
• State Assembly - 2
SoulMusicRocks - April 2, 2008 11:34 PM (GMT)
Thank you for the analysis and commentary, Movin'. It is frustrating right now, but will be worth it in the long run.
alienhamster - April 3, 2008 02:52 PM (GMT)
Benito,
What has Hillary accomplished in terms of experiences that will make her more ready than Obama for the kinds of things you're worried about?
Benito - April 3, 2008 03:10 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (alienhamster @ Apr 3 2008, 09:52 AM) |
Benito,
What has Hillary accomplished in terms of experiences that will make her more ready than Obama for the kinds of things you're worried about? |
Excuse me, have you forgotten the booming Clinton years? Were you born yesterday? Hillary was RIGHT THERE, where the action was!
alienhamster - April 4, 2008 03:44 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Benito @ Apr 3 2008, 03:10 PM) |
| QUOTE (alienhamster @ Apr 3 2008, 09:52 AM) | Benito,
What has Hillary accomplished in terms of experiences that will make her more ready than Obama for the kinds of things you're worried about? |
Excuse me, have you forgotten the booming Clinton years? Were you born yesterday? Hillary was RIGHT THERE, where the action was!
|
Right. So, what did she do and accomplish during those years that makes her more fit as an executive leader than Obama or McCain?
movin2thabeet - April 4, 2008 04:44 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Benito @ Apr 3 2008, 08:10 AM) |
| QUOTE (alienhamster @ Apr 3 2008, 09:52 AM) | Benito,
What has Hillary accomplished in terms of experiences that will make her more ready than Obama for the kinds of things you're worried about? |
Excuse me, have you forgotten the booming Clinton years? Were you born yesterday? Hillary was RIGHT THERE, where the action was!
|
Yes, Hillary was there - as First Lady. Nobody has claimed that Laura Bush, Rosalyn Carter or Nancy Reagan was qualified to be President just because they lived in the White House, discussed policies and went on photo-op missions around the world. Or how about Chelsea Clinton? She seems very bright, and went on many of those same missions and I'm sure had intelligent discussions around the dinner table with her father and mother? We know Hillary did not have top security credentials to attend high level meetings, so exactly what experience besides exposure coupled with ambition can you refer to here. Yes, there's her Health Care bill, which was crafted secretly. If this is an example of her style of leadership, and there are plenty of signs indicating that transparency is not really her strong suit, then, I'm not biting. (By the way, why do you think she's waiting to release her tax returns? Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that there's very likely unpleasant news to be found there, and she's waiting to disclose them to incur as little damage as possible? After all, a quick trip to Kinko's is pretty much all that's required.)
And if Hillary is really going to run on her husband Bill's record, then she'll have to take responsibility for NAFTA. Saying that she really opposed it behind closed doors even as she went across the country promoting it, really doesn't wash with me, sorry. And while we're talking Bill's record, you'll also have to accept responsibility for the Telecommunications Reform Act of 1996, which deregulated the radio market and set the stage for today’s media merger. Now only 5 companies own the airwaves, thanks to Pres. Clinton.
These 2 measures - NAFTA and the Telecommunications Act - have been responsible for not only hemorrhaging America's jobs but also crippling the Fourth Estate, an essential component of a true Democracy. If all our news distribution (and also music) is owned by a few corporations, how can we expect to have an informed populace? Answer: we can't and we don't. When Hillary was recently asked if she would repeal the Telecommunications Act, she ducked the issue saying she was no expert on the subject. And she's running on the experience of the Clinton White House? OK.
And how about that wonderful "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy - again, signed into law by Clinton?
Hillary does have a Senate record which is verifiable and is a good indicator of how she approaches governance. I posted an interesting comparison of the Senate records of Clinton and Obama earlier. It is very informative.
Bottom line for me: If you're primarily running on having the most experience, you sure better back it up with more than fictional stories of ducking sniper fire and claiming a major role in bringing peace to Northern Ireland. It's not enough to air scary ads about 3AM calls. Let's hear substantial evidence to back up her claims that she is more qualified to be the next President of the US. Isn't it Hillary that is saying that it takes more than words (Experience, Experience, Experience)? What it really comes down to is Clinton, Clinton, Clinton. She's running on the Clinton brand - and since Bill's legacy clearly helped to usher in the corporatization of America, that branding shoe fits pretty well.
Benito - April 4, 2008 04:25 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (movin2thabeet @ Apr 3 2008, 11:44 PM) |
| QUOTE (Benito @ Apr 3 2008, 08:10 AM) | | QUOTE (alienhamster @ Apr 3 2008, 09:52 AM) | Benito,
What has Hillary accomplished in terms of experiences that will make her more ready than Obama for the kinds of things you're worried about? |
Excuse me, have you forgotten the booming Clinton years? Were you born yesterday? Hillary was RIGHT THERE, where the action was!
|
Yes, Hillary was there - as First Lady. Nobody has claimed that Laura Bush, Rosalyn Carter or Nancy Reagan was qualified to be President just because they lived in the White House, discussed policies and went on photo-op missions around the world. Or how about Chelsea Clinton? She seems very bright, and went on many of those same missions and I'm sure had intelligent discussions around the dinner table with her father and mother? We know Hillary did not have top security credentials to attend high level meetings, so exactly what experience besides exposure coupled with ambition can you refer to here. Yes, there's her Health Care bill, which was crafted secretly. If this is an example of her style of leadership, and there are plenty of signs indicating that transparency is not really her strong suit, then, I'm not biting. (By the way, why do you think she's waiting to release her tax returns? Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that there's very likely unpleasant news to be found there, and she's waiting to disclose them to incur as little damage as possible? After all, a quick trip to Kinko's is pretty much all that's required.)
And if Hillary is really going to run on her husband Bill's record, then she'll have to take responsibility for NAFTA. Saying that she really opposed it behind closed doors even as she went across the country promoting it, really doesn't wash with me, sorry. And while we're talking Bill's record, you'll also have to accept responsibility for the Telecommunications Reform Act of 1996, which deregulated the radio market and set the stage for today’s media merger. Now only 5 companies own the airwaves, thanks to Pres. Clinton.
These 2 measures - NAFTA and the Telecommunications Act - have been responsible for not only hemorrhaging America's jobs but also crippling the Fourth Estate, an essential component of a true Democracy. If all our news distribution (and also music) is owned by a few corporations, how can we expect to have an informed populace? Answer: we can't and we don't. When Hillary was recently asked if she would repeal the Telecommunications Act, she ducked the issue saying she was no expert on the subject. And she's running on the experience of the Clinton White House? OK.
And how about that wonderful "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy - again, signed into law by Clinton?
Hillary does have a Senate record which is verifiable and is a good indicator of how she approaches governance. I posted an interesting comparison of the Senate records of Clinton and Obama earlier. It is very informative.
Bottom line for me: If you're primarily running on having the most experience, you sure better back it up with more than fictional stories of ducking sniper fire and claiming a major role in bringing peace to Northern Ireland. It's not enough to air scary ads about 3AM calls. Let's hear substantial evidence to back up her claims that she is more qualified to be the next President of the US. Isn't it Hillary that is saying that it takes more than words (Experience, Experience, Experience)? What it really comes down to is Clinton, Clinton, Clinton. She's running on the Clinton brand - and since Bill's legacy clearly helped to usher in the corporatization of America, that branding shoe fits pretty well.
|
Splitting hairs. Ad hominem arguments.
peppers23 - April 5, 2008 02:53 AM (GMT)
Whew, it's getting a little hot in here. What bothers me the most about the 3 left standing is that NOT ONE of them have strong executive experience. For those of you who support the eventual candidate from the Democratic party; have you factored in Ralph Nader? He blew it for Gore in Florida in 2000 and has the potential to do the same in a critical swing state this time around. Will the jilted Obama or Clinton supporters defect to Nader?
movin2thabeet - April 5, 2008 04:58 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (peppers23 @ Apr 4 2008, 07:53 PM) |
| Whew, it's getting a little hot in here. What bothers me the most about the 3 left standing is that NOT ONE of them have strong executive experience. For those of you who support the eventual candidate from the Democratic party; have you factored in Ralph Nader? He blew it for Gore in Florida in 2000 and has the potential to do the same in a critical swing state this time around. Will the jilted Obama or Clinton supporters defect to Nader? |
There is little correlation between a successful US Presidency and previous years of federal experience.
Key examples of our greatest Presidents (Ranked in order by Historical ranking):
#1. Andrew Lincoln - 2 yrs. in US House; 8 yrs. State govt. - Total govt exp - 10 years
#2. Franklin D. Roosevelt - 4 yrs. as Governor; 2 yrs. in State govt. - Total govt exp - 6 years
#5. Theodore Roosevelt - 2 yrs. in appointed City/Fed govt; 2 yrs. as Governor - Total govt exp - 4+ years
#6. Woodrow Wilson - 2 yrs. as Governor - Total govt exp - 2 years
And our current Democratic candidates:
Barack Obama - 2 yrs. in US Senate; 8 yrs. in State govt. (similiar to Lincoln) - Total govt exp - 10 years
Hillary Clinton - 6 yrs. in US Senate - Total govt exp - 6 years + First Lady experience
All this shows that some of this country's greatest Presidents had little previous experience in Federal government. It is also true that some our of worst Presidents had loads of experience. I highly recommend this site as an excellent resource on the topic of Presidential experience v. greatness which is where the above info came from:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Info/experience.html
peppers23 - April 5, 2008 05:09 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (movin2thabeet @ Apr 5 2008, 12:58 AM) |
| QUOTE (peppers23 @ Apr 4 2008, 07:53 PM) | | Whew, it's getting a little hot in here. What bothers me the most about the 3 left standing is that NOT ONE of them have strong executive experience. For those of you who support the eventual candidate from the Democratic party; have you factored in Ralph Nader? He blew it for Gore in Florida in 2000 and has the potential to do the same in a critical swing state this time around. Will the jilted Obama or Clinton supporters defect to Nader? |
There is little correlation between a successful US Presidency and previous years of federal experience. Key examples of our greatest Presidents (Ranked in order by Historical ranking): #1. Andrew Lincoln - 2 yrs. in US House; 8 yrs. State govt. - Total govt exp - 10 years #2. Franklin D. Roosevelt - 4 yrs. as Governor; 2 yrs. in State govt. - Total govt exp - 6 years #5. Theodore Roosevelt - 2 yrs. in appointed City/Fed govt; 2 yrs. as Governor - Total govt exp - 4+ years #6. Woodrow Wilson - 2 yrs. as Governor - Total govt exp - 2 years And our current Democratic candidates: Barack Obama - 2 yrs. in US Senate; 8 yrs. in State govt. (similiar to Lincoln) - Total govt exp - 10 years Hillary Clinton - 6 yrs. in US Senate - Total govt exp - 6 years + First Lady experience All this shows that some of this country's greatest Presidents had little previous experience in Federal government. It is also true that some our of worst Presidents had loads of experience. I highly recommend this site as an excellent resource on the topic of Presidential experience v. greatness which is where the above info came from: http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Info/experience.html |
FDR, Teddy Roosevelt and Wilson were all governors, or chief executives of their respective states, hence executive experience. They had run a government before. I think that a lack of experience at the federal level may be plus. The nominee may then have a chance to plow through the entrenched special interests and make the fundimental change that the Obama camp touts.
alienhamster - April 5, 2008 09:51 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (peppers23 @ Apr 5 2008, 02:53 AM) |
| Whew, it's getting a little hot in here. What bothers me the most about the 3 left standing is that NOT ONE of them have strong executive experience. For those of you who support the eventual candidate from the Democratic party; have you factored in Ralph Nader? He blew it for Gore in Florida in 2000 and has the potential to do the same in a critical swing state this time around. Will the jilted Obama or Clinton supporters defect to Nader? |
Peppers,
Your assessment of the executive experience of all candidates seems most correct to me. All of them have been legislators, not executives. McCain has the longest national legislative experience. Clinton has more national level experience than Obama, but only by a couple of years. Obama, on the other hand, has had more legislative experience than her counting both his state and national level experience.
I notice that Benito still hasn't given a single specific piece of evidence of Hillary's own executive experience. I don't think her lack of experience would make her a bad president necessarily. I just can't figure out why all of her supporters are buying this "experience" line when there's no evidence to back up that claim.
I tend to agree with Movin that executive experience is helpful but not necessarily the most important criterion for being Pres. Judgment, vision, competence, persuasiveness, and specific policies are the most important to me personally.
SoulMusicRocks - April 6, 2008 03:06 PM (GMT)
Obama will likely be the nominee. I read somewhere (I'll try to find the source) that Clinton needs 60% + in the remaining 10 contests. She was supposed to win Ohio by a large lead and in reality only did so narrowly. Pennsylvania may even be a repeat of Wisconsin (another state with supposed "Clinton" voters) that went to Obama. She may still win the Key Stone state, but I bet by less than 10%. This does not put her anywhere near close to his lead and the endorsements via Superdelegates are trickling in virtually everyday for Obama.
Honestly, I think my indignation towards Clinton is subsiding over the campaign tactics and the way she has presented herself through this Primary season. She would make a great Senate Majority Leader. Can we please replace Harry Reid with someone who has the political know-how and strength to start getting things done? I think that person is Hillary Clinton. See, I can be positive and supportive ;-). Clinton would be great in that leadership role, IMO. However, we need a visionary and someone with the innate capacity to take on the broken system in words and action for President. Even John Edwards represented this more than Clinton. Anyway, my point is that I hope things (for the sake of our country) turn Blue this November.
jmc4e - April 7, 2008 03:35 AM (GMT)
All of you are so polite. I can't say the same for me.
Hillary will bring out the worst in all of us. She has no respect for us or herself.
Obama on the other hand will always take the high road. He will bring Honor and Integrity back to the White House. We will become a nation respected here and abroad. I am very excited that he will be our new President.
Benito - April 7, 2008 03:40 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (alienhamster @ Apr 5 2008, 04:51 PM) |
I notice that Benito still hasn't given a single specific piece of evidence of Hillary's own executive experience. I don't think her lack of experience would make her a bad president necessarily. I just can't figure out why all of her supporters are buying this "experience" line when there's no evidence to back up that claim.
|
Funny how you do the "projection" bit, i.e. the fact that your St. Obama is a tyro, you insist that his opponent, Hillary Clinton, is also a blank slate. FYI, Hillary was a PROACTIVE First Lady, not your run-of-the-mill kind who contents herself to baking cookies and making tea. I cannot cite you specifics lest Hillary will be accused of dipping her fingers into the governance pie, without, as you would say, "security clearance." I now rest my case.
And please be content with your saint, who didn't have the decency to carry his butt to Memphis for the MLK death anniversay.
SoulMusicRocks - April 7, 2008 08:29 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Benito @ Apr 7 2008, 10:40 AM) |
| QUOTE (alienhamster @ Apr 5 2008, 04:51 PM) | I notice that Benito still hasn't given a single specific piece of evidence of Hillary's own executive experience. I don't think her lack of experience would make her a bad president necessarily. I just can't figure out why all of her supporters are buying this "experience" line when there's no evidence to back up that claim.
|
Funny how you do the "projection" bit, i.e. the fact that your St. Obama is a tyro, you insist that his opponent, Hillary Clinton, is also a blank slate. FYI, Hillary was a PROACTIVE First Lady, not your run-of-the-mill kind who contents herself to baking cookies and making tea. I cannot cite you specifics lest Hillary will be accused of dipping her fingers into the governance pie, without, as you would say, "security clearance." I now rest my case.
And please be content with your saint, who didn't have the decency to carry his butt to Memphis for the MLK death anniversay.
|
Speaking of ad hominem arguments......just sayin'.
Neither Clinton or Obama are "blank slates". They are intelligent adults who have their own beliefs and plans to make necessary change in the country, IMO. Still, I feel Barack has the judgement and vision to unify and create a working majority that makes the change we desperately need. McCain and Clinton represent more partisan bickering that keeps young people from getting an education and millions of people from health care.
Sidebar: Senator Clinton is on Ellen now. She told a story about how her Mom and Dad were friends with a Gay couple who lived next door. They were kind and were there for them when Senator Clinton's Father passed away. Then, one of the men got sick and were not able to visit his life partner in the hospital like Hillary and her family were able to in the hospital. It was a really touching story and I liked some of her comments on making Gays/Lesbians equal under the law. I guess my question is: Why won't she repeal DOMA and "Don't Ask Don't Tell"? It should be illegal to discharge someone from the military for being an openly Gay woman or man.
This really says it all for me. Her story was beautiful and I liked her sentiments. But her policy positions say contrary to her espousing platitudes of equality that she does not truly support. At least Obama supports repealing those failed policies.....
Sk8888 - April 7, 2008 10:01 PM (GMT)
SMR,
There is nothing more effective at mobilizing the conservative base than a prolonged discussion on same sex marriage and a woman's right to choose, and any issue in the neighborhood.
John Kerry is still angry with San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom who didn't try to stop the same sex marriages on the steps of the SF City Hall in 2004 , which gained national coverage, topping off with Rosey O'Donnell flying in to tie the knot with her partner.
You may or may not recall that set off a move to qualify a string of propositions to declare that marriage is between a man and a woman, most notably in the state of Ohio. High voter turn-out was chalked up to the highly emotional proposition being on the ballot, the Presidential race coming in second as the reason voters turned out.
There's no way of knowing now, but conventional wisdom has it that Ohio would have gone to Kerry had the same sex marriage proposition NOT been on the same ballot.
Who knows, but do I want to test it yet again? No, I really don't.
SoulMusicRocks - April 7, 2008 11:02 PM (GMT)
NM: I give up on this subject.
Taratova - May 9, 2008 02:02 AM (GMT)
Ross Perot was right . He was against the passing of Nafta.
I voted for Perot.
Actually the democratic party has changed dramatically. It is now made up of some different social and economic groups . wealthy radical left and the poor minorities who are kept down by big government handouts.Yet many minorities are still moving up and out of that stranglehold , becoming middleclass americans. And now they are struggling.
And what is it with Obama getting all the radicals supporting him?? Do they know something about Obama we don't know? Do they think he is weak? Or do they think he will unite us all with dangerous compromise. I want to know more!! This is a strange thing happening that has never happened before.Are we uniting with the terrorists and communists now? It is a fair question.
Also looking for a savior in a president is being a dreamer. I am too much a realist to think any man who becomes president can bring peace , prosperity and solve all the problems that will face us. It is going to get worse and worse no matter who gets in. Don't count on government to answer all the problems we are going to face down the road.
wowhesgood - May 9, 2008 03:10 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Taratova @ May 9 2008, 02:02 AM) |
Ross Perot was right . He was against the passing of Nafta.
I voted for Perot.
Actually the democratic party has changed dramatically. It is now made up of some different social and economic groups . wealthy radical left and the poor minorities who are kept down by big government handouts.Yet many minorities are still moving up and out of that stranglehold , becoming middleclass americans. And now they are struggling.
And what is it with Obama getting all the radicals supporting him?? Do they know something about Obama we don't know? Do they think he is weak? Or do they think he will unite us all with dangerous compromise. I want to know more!! This is a strange thing happening that has never happened before.Are we uniting with the terrorists and communists now? It is a fair question.
Also looking for a savior in a president is being a dreamer. I am too much a realist to think any man who becomes president can bring peace , prosperity and solve all the problems that will face us. It is going to get worse and worse no matter who gets in. Don't count on government to answer all the problems we are going to face down the road. |
But see, that is one of the reasons that Obama inspires me is that he isn't saying he can do it all. He is calling upon each and every one of us to do what we can to make the nation what it has the potential to be and to demand it of those around us and representing us. To demand they represent the interests of the people rather than big business and special interest groups. To me that is a leader, asking us to all take responsibility for ourselves rather than expecting someone else to make it right for us. That is my take on a small part of it.
Taratova - May 9, 2008 03:52 AM (GMT)
I also watch and listen carefully to words chosen by anyone who is running for public office.
This basic message I have heard many times before. President Clinton also ran with the same concept. I am not inspired so easily. I have become a realist and it is much healthier than to think this same message can do anything.
I put my moral compass first as my guide and then work from there. It is not so much the person, I don' t look at the surface fluff (promises) I look at it through my moral beliefs and take into account the real world , the message of each candidate and then I usually come out with a candidate that best suits the situation of the world and taking into account what each can really accomplish. There are too many factors going on at once. Trying to fix the economy when there is worldwide greed, add in inflation, proverty, etc. and nuclear threats from North Korea, and now Iran. Doesn't look good to me. I don't think we have any one capable to fix it all.
SoulMusicRocks - May 9, 2008 04:43 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Taratova @ May 8 2008, 09:02 PM) |
Ross Perot was right . He was against the passing of Nafta.
I voted for Perot.
Actually the democratic party has changed dramatically. It is now made up of some different social and economic groups . wealthy radical left and the poor minorities who are kept down by big government handouts.Yet many minorities are still moving up and out of that stranglehold , becoming middleclass americans. And now they are struggling.
And what is it with Obama getting all the radicals supporting him?? Do they know something about Obama we don't know? Do they think he is weak? Or do they think he will unite us all with dangerous compromise. I want to know more!! This is a strange thing happening that has never happened before.Are we uniting with the terrorists and communists now? It is a fair question.
Also looking for a savior in a president is being a dreamer. I am too much a realist to think any man who becomes president can bring peace , prosperity and solve all the problems that will face us. It is going to get worse and worse no matter who gets in. Don't count on government to answer all the problems we are going to face down the road. |
The far Right has controlled this country for 8 years. I recently found out that I would be considered a Mainstream Conservative in Europe with my beliefs. Meanwhile, here in the US, I'm considered very Liberal and Leftist. What are these terms and how are they defined anyway? I guess it's the overall positions on main issues, but these labels seem to detract from rational and realistic discussion. People seem more concerned about whether we are one or the other instead of actually solving our problems.
Taratova - May 10, 2008 12:42 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ May 9 2008, 11:43 AM) |
| QUOTE (Taratova @ May 8 2008, 09:02 PM) | Ross Perot was right . He was against the passing of Nafta.
I voted for Perot.
Actually the democratic party has changed dramatically. It is now made up of some different social and economic groups . wealthy radical left and the poor minorities who are kept down by big government handouts.Yet many minorities are still moving up and out of that stranglehold , becoming middleclass americans. And now they are struggling.
And what is it with Obama getting all the radicals supporting him?? Do they know something about Obama we don't know? Do they think he is weak? Or do they think he will unite us all with dangerous compromise. I want to know more!! This is a strange thing happening that has never happened before.Are we uniting with the terrorists and communists now? It is a fair question.
Also looking for a savior in a president is being a dreamer. I am too much a realist to think any man who becomes president can bring peace , prosperity and solve all the problems that will face us. It is going to get worse and worse no matter who gets in. Don't count on government to answer all the problems we are going to face down the road. |
The far Right has controlled this country for 8 years. I recently found out that I would be considered a Mainstream Conservative in Europe with my beliefs. Meanwhile, here in the US, I'm considered very Liberal and Leftist. What are these terms and how are they defined anyway? I guess it's the overall positions on main issues, but these labels seem to detract from rational and realistic discussion. People seem more concerned about whether we are one or the other instead of actually solving our problems.
|
The problem is we vote under these two labels and elect a president under these two labels so it must matter.
SoulMusicRocks - May 10, 2008 01:51 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Taratova @ May 9 2008, 07:42 PM) |
| QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ May 9 2008, 11:43 AM) | | QUOTE (Taratova @ May 8 2008, 09:02 PM) | Ross Perot was right . He was against the passing of Nafta.
I voted for Perot.
Actually the democratic party has changed dramatically. It is now made up of some different social and economic groups . wealthy radical left and the poor minorities who are kept down by big government handouts.Yet many minorities are still moving up and out of that stranglehold , becoming middleclass americans. And now they are struggling.
And what is it with Obama getting all the radicals supporting him?? Do they know something about Obama we don't know? Do they think he is weak? Or do they think he will unite us all with dangerous compromise. I want to know more!! This is a strange thing happening that has never happened before.Are we uniting with the terrorists and communists now? It is a fair question.
Also looking for a savior in a president is being a dreamer. I am too much a realist to think any man who becomes president can bring peace , prosperity and solve all the problems that will face us. It is going to get worse and worse no matter who gets in. Don't count on government to answer all the problems we are going to face down the road. |
The far Right has controlled this country for 8 years. I recently found out that I would be considered a Mainstream Conservative in Europe with my beliefs. Meanwhile, here in the US, I'm considered very Liberal and Leftist. What are these terms and how are they defined anyway? I guess it's the overall positions on main issues, but these labels seem to detract from rational and realistic discussion. People seem more concerned about whether we are one or the other instead of actually solving our problems.
|
The problem is we vote under these two labels and elect a president under these two labels so it must matter.
|
That's a good point. My favorite conversations have been with self-described Independents who go with either Democrats or Republicans depending upon which candidate aligns with them the most. I look forward to November :)