Just thought I would test the waters and see if there are any others on this board who want to discuss or who want to know more about Objectivism/Liberataring writers and thinkers.

I am interested and would like to know more. I have only read one Ayn Rand book, the Fountainhead. I enjoyed it greatly, but it was a while ago, so I don't remember totally what those terms reflect. Can you tell me more?

Also, Meta, where is the science fiction book thread you were talking about? I can't seem to find it here.

I would very much be interested in any reading materials that you suggest.
About 7 years ago, I started to have some interest and then my life turned upside down and I forgot about it. I am now back on track and would like some suggestions.

:thumbsup:

Lise - I sent you a PM about the book thread.

Hey, I am so excited to see the postings here this morning! I had an idea to just start writing things in this section to see if anyone would be interested further.

I think Ayn Rand is of particular interest to women, or should be. If you do not mind me digressing a bit, I want to set the stage for you.

The year is 1943. Three best selling books of philosopher come out all written by women. Two are nonfiction, and one is fiction. All three are major works that deeply influence millions, perhpas billions by now.

The first work is written by Isabel Paterson, "The God of the Machine."

Isabel in Wikepedia

"Isabel Bowler Paterson (January 22, 1886, Manitoulin Island Canada -- 1961) was a journalist, author, political philosopher, and a leading literary critic of her day. Along with Rose Wilder Lane and Ayn Rand, who both acknowledged an intellectual debt to Paterson, she is one of the three founding mothers of American libertarianism.

Paterson's best known work, her 1943 book The God in the Machine, a treatise on political philosophy, economics, and history, reached conclusions and espoused beliefs that many libertarians credit as a foundation of their philosophy. Her biographer Cox (2004) believes Paterson is the "earliest progenitor of libertarianism as we know it today."

The second best seller to come out is called "The Discovery of Freedom" by Rose Wilder Lane. (FYI: Rose is the daughter of Larua Ingalls Wilder of "Little House..." fame.)

Rose in Wikipedia

"Rose Wilder Lane (December 5, 1886, De Smet, Dakota Territory – October 30, 1968, Danbury, Connecticut) was an American journalist, travel writer, novelist, and political theorist. Although her mother Laura Ingalls Wilder is now the better known writer, Lane's accomplishments remain remarkable. She is considered a seminal force behind the American Libertarian Party."

Finally, Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead."

Wikipedia on Ayn Rand

"Ayn Rand (IPA: [ajn ɹænd], Ayn rhyming with fine; February 2 [O.S. January 20] 1905 – March 6, 1982), born Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum (Russian: Алиса Зиновьева Розенбаум), was a Russian-born Jewish-American author best known for developing the philosophy of Objectivism and for writing the novels The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, We the Living, and Anthem.

Her philosophy and her fiction both emphasize, above all, the concepts of reason, individualism, rational egoism ("rational self-interest"), and laissez-faire capitalism. She believed that people must choose their values and actions by reason; that the individual has a right to exist for his or her own sake, neither sacrificing self to others nor others to self; and that no one has the right to take what belongs to others by physical force or fraud, or impose their moral code on others by physical force. Her politics have been described as minarchism and libertarianism, though she never used the first term and detested the second.[1]"

(to be continued...)

My frist introduction to libertarian thought came about in this way: I was a very thoughtful, observant, and mindful child due to being born and raised in unusual circumstance (or, atleast, that seems the most likely explanation.) I was fullly awake and aware of myself in the world from age 2 1/2 and from that time constantly sought knowledge and guidance about how other people lived out their life span so I could choose how I wanted to live my own. From my experiences and observations of others' experiences I formed certain conclusions about life and the living of it. At the age of 14, a family friend, a woman who had migrated to the US from Holland after the war (she had fought in the Dutch Resistance); gave me two books for my birthday: "Islandia" by Austin Tappan Wright & "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand.

I will not talk about "Islandia" except to say that it continues to be one of my favorites.

"Atlas Shrugged" was a revelation: Here, I cried out to myself in glee, is someone who sees what I see, who knows what I know! I set about reading all her fiction and nonfiction. I have to say that I did not really undertand Ayn's work on an intellectual level at that time; however, it resonated in my soul...I had found my own people who acted in ways that I understood rather than the adults in my life who acted in ways that were chaotic, arbitrary and unfathomable.

I sought to educate myself further so I could place Ayn's work in context. Over the years I learned about literature, history, science...I thirsted after knowledge like water and was rewarded in every direction I traveled---except one!!!

That direction is the nature of human beings or, as I like to rephrase it, the nature of humans being. I came to realize that we have profoundly misidentified our life form...and we have constructed all our political and religious institutions, even our very cultures upon those misconceptions.

I began to separate into neat little piles what individuals were and are, working and creating and thinking and acting in accordance with what I myself know to be true, and what individuals do not.

(...to be continued...)

Really interesting Meta (Bron). I am loving this thread! You are making me thirst again to read Ayn and others like her. And I really want to hear more of what you have to say...

Meta, you appear to be a deep and introspective person. I once thought I was also but life has a way of redirecting you and filling your time with other things.
I appreciate the time you spent in advising us on the literature to read. I am very much interested and shall be off to the bookstore this weekend. :thumbsup:

:hello: We have a learning cycle that includes direct experience and then reflection...both are equally important.

...here's the next part...

First off, I am interested in any questions—any answers-- you might formulate along the way. Equally, I am interested in your own life experiences that inform those questions and answers. I name these experiences “qualifiers.”

Now, the main point I would like to get across is that term “libertarian” does not refer to a political party. Libertarian thought might manifest itself through politics, or economics, or even religion. Primarily, however, libertarian thought is a foundational point-of-view about the nature of the universe and the humans within it. It seeks to affirm and support our existence here not undermine it. It accepts the reality that our lifeform is individated...we are not a group species. Thus all our activities that support our lifeform's survival and flourishing must begin with the nourishing of the individual.

What I have seen increasingly over my lifetime is a great and growing divide between two camps: not the haves and have nots, but rather the do and do nots –those who strive to produce and those who strive to remain idle. Those who embrace life and are excited about it, and those who fear life and wish to avoid it. Libertarians are to be found among those who are productive and who seek a free—what I call, “creating space” within which to invent, innovate and exchange their products for a value determined solely between interested trading parties. Current libertarian "movements" are world wide affecting the look and feel of expectations in such diverse areas of the glabal as Costa Rica, Poland, India, and New Zealand.

o illustrate this point, our Founding Fathers were producers. There experiences with the Old Regimes of Europe underlay all their striving to create a country that was that “creating space.” They identified the chief problem of Old Europe as property rights. Thus, our Constitution and our government began as solely dedicated to upholding, defining, and protecting the rights of people to own the product of their labors. In 1790 we enacted the first copyright laws – just one of our innovations that are today taken for granted. Yet, it cannot be stated too strongly that the majority of countries in the world have no delineated property rights or legal protection of property. Moreover, there is an ill-understood direct connection betwen the absence of basic property rights, and legal protection of those rights, and poverty.

Most of the early challenges to our Constitution come from questions about what constitutes “property rights.” These questions are at the root of the women’s’ rights and anti-slavery movements.

Sidebar: Most folks do not realize that the key issue for early women’s rights advocates was not the vote. Rather it was property rights. Believe it or not, women got the vote before they got their full equality in the arena of property rights.

It was not until Teddy Roosevelt (a rich guy with too much time on his hands) decided to alter the perception of American government in the minds of the people, that we entered into this modern day split between two warring schools of thought: That the State exists to protect property rights (in the largest sense of that term) versus the State exists to ensure the “welfare of the people”, however welfare is defined at any time and place. Keep inmind that our Constitution was written to protect the one and not guarantee the other. This plays out now if the sharp debate about Supreme Court and Higher Court appointees in reference to "strict constructionists."

To really understand how significance of Teddy’s piloting of the Ship of State off course in terms of what the Founding Fathers intended, it is helpful to do some lateral research into the events of his day, that is, the prevailing “progressive” thought and other such matters.

We do live in an age where many think history began on the day they were born, they seem unaware of the simple fact that each of us are born in the midst of the universal timeline…we are not at the beginning or the end of time. We are each of us surrounded by, what I call, “the parenthetical statement*.” Here is Rose Wilder Lane’s parenthetical statement for an example. (December 5, 1886, De Smet, Dakota Territory – October 30, 1968, Danbury, Connecticut)

*When I was in the third grade I started reading biographies, again in pursuit of comprehending my personal options of how to craft a human life. Over the many biographies I read between then and seventh grade, I noticed this parenthetical statement…ah, I said to myself, so this is the space when I create my life, this is all I need wonder about and concern myself with. I even projected by probable end date. It seemed infinitely doable. My keeping this “statement” in my mind I have been able to put my life span in context with what I want to accomplish and when I might have and appreciate various kinds of personal experiences.

…to be continued…

Next topic is human potential and individual development which is my own area of interest and, expertise.

Libertarianism sounds like an enthralling ideology that I admit to not fully comprehending from the stand-point of an operational definition. Thank you for your above posts Meta, as I can now somewhat see what Libertarian thought and Philosophy is. As a College student, the absorption of knowledge from multiple perspectives in order to gain balanced, intelligent, and unbiased view of the world has become even more pertinent to my life. Philosophy itself is about the creation of thoughts, ideas, and attitudes which is what can add infinite meaning to our existence. We constantly search for pertinent and applicable knowledge, learn to employ it effectively, and then are able to apply this information to novel and creative solutions of our own. If we did not debate in the various forums where human innovation and creation is inherent, than our own capacity for creative thought would dwindle. This is not relegated to Music or the Literary world, but every aspect of life in which humanity influences each other and the Earth itself from an Environmental perspective. If we could indeed learn to be more objective thinkers with a more open mind, I believe our potential could become even greater than it already is.

What is problematic is that we are also very subjective individuals and have different life experience that writes a unique story on an otherwise "Blank Slate". Our emotions and feelings sway us into different directions much as the wind to a kite in the sky. However, this is the beauty of Philosophical debate in relation to Politics, Religion, Science, Music, Literature, and Art. These diverse forums communicate not only our intellectual pursuits and logic, but the life experience that has moved us into the direction that we currently travel upon in the journey that is life. Sometimes I imagine what life would be like if all of our opinions were the same and what an inspid existence that would be. If everyone thought and felt the same about subject after subject, human innovation would be non-existent in itself because we would not have diverse minds to create many things.

Music, Writing, and Reading have been three major impacts that have written a great deal in the book of my life. Each of the artists we encounter is an opportunity to walk away with a new found epiphany or important thought that never crossed the mind before. The immense creative energy involved with the moving lyrics that astonish the mind and move the soul is a powerful force in Musical composition. One must utilize careful and precise language that captures the reader on every level and causes the reader to discover a lesson about the world or maybe even themselves. Then of course, the key to unlocking another door of opportunity to creativity: Reading. The irony involved in reading is that one obtains the understanding and practically life experience of characters in a fictional novel who endure great adversity, tragedy, or personal victory that the author shares with us.

With life, there seems to be moments where our objectivity or subjectivity plays a prevalent role. We are human beings, therefore, are not perfect. However, we all have individual talents that have the possibility to become our greatest achievement later and be a contribution to the world. No matter how influential we are as people, whether we are the President of a Nation or a singer trying to make it in the music business. We all have a creative potential that awaits to be awakened, fostered, and applied as a productive person in the respective societies and cultures that we live in. Intelligence, Creativity, and Artistic brilliance in all mediums derive from who we are and what our "philosophy" is. In the journey, there will always be difficult moments, but we should never lose sight of our creative strengths that lend light to the world and give meaning to who we are as individuals. So I leave you with the notion that life is a perpetual series of experience that change who you are and to allow those things to be attributed as personal touches to your own creativity as a Philosopher, Artist, or just another person trying to figure out this thing called life.

Thanks for stopping by to post, SoulThatRocks. I have to admit that I am somewhat puzzled by the essay you include above since it does not appear to be related to the topic under disucssion except tangentially. While the essay sours above the landscape, it never seems to touch down on any specific case or example, or relate to your own personal experience.

By the way, The term, "liberatarian" is spelled with a small "l." It is not a presumptuous way of thinking, rather is it plain, work-a-day, and utile. That is why it appeals to me.

One of the differences between the "isms" in the world and libertarian thought is that the typical liberatarian is one who looks for and is actively creating practical solutions and applications to real life, real time situations. These solutions do originate in a certain set of assumptions, the chief of which is--facts matter. Further, that there is a knowable objective Reality that works the same way everytime for everyone. A liberatarian seeks to know for herself or himself what is true. "Trust but verify," would be a useful motto.

STR, you are at a great time of life when you are still making up your mind about what is true and what is not true. Hopefully, you are learning at University how to research; how to ask the most important questions; how to detect bias; and how to look at the current world with a healthy dose of skepticism. My own academic training is in history, biology, and anthropology. This reflects my own interest in the ongoing timeline, and the progress of the human species at any given time in solving and resolving the most common existential challenges. These challenges are identical to each person ever to be born since the beginning of the species not so very long ago (in terms of universal time.)

:D

Meta, I was trying to branch into what thought/Philosophy in general means to me from the perspective of a College student and what I've observed in life so far. I'm sorry I did not include more personal examples/anecdotes for stronger connection, but my reasoning for the essay was more or less a thematic approach that brought many elements together.....focus is something I still have to work on in my writing lol. The portion I left out was my first year of College and how the professors have challenged my intellectual ability and promoted the sharp questioning of the world around me. I know I've always been somewhat critical of most things, but did not realize how more objective/critical you could be without being mean-spirited, you know? Thank you for your commentary on what libertarian thought is. I re-read your posts again and understand it fairly well now.

:hello2: STR - Thanks for clarifying. I do not know if you could understand the basic libertarian mindset from my remarks above. I did not really state any of its basic propositions other than a respect for facts.

STR, what is your college major, if I might ask? You sound like a very bright and inquiring mind. Your habit of questions everything is a good one to acquire. Your professors have certain areas of expertise and it is up to you to take from them what they truly have to offer undertanding all the while what their own biases are.

When I was in college, the Marxist movement, that has since swept the univerities in the US, was only beginning so I can well remember the big BEFORE. Now, some of my college mates were enamored with Communicism and its step child Socialism...in other words, with forms of Statism. Statism or the concentration of power in a central state controlled by an army of bureaucrats and their masters is attractive to those who have little regard for human beings. They are dismayed by the messy way history truly unfolds with many bridges (billions of bridges, inf act) being built to the future which are under no one's control.

Sidebar: Many of my contemporaries went on to coopt the universities as incubators for Marxist thought. We often say that our generation really screw things up on many fornts and it is up to us to fix it! Oh, and one other thing, Marxism was already a failed philosophy (meaning Marxists predictions never came true.) by 1900!

As I said, many college students in my day (and subsequently) are enamored with any philosophy that promises, no matter how falsely, an easy fix to the world's "problems." Marxism reduces everything to political terms, that is why it is a political philosophy. It takes morality and policizes it; it takes the environment and politicizes it. It sees everything in terms of creating power bases out of, most often, people's fears OR their finer feelings.

This is exactly what you are really sensing, that you are the decision maker, the commander of your own ship of state. You have an opportunity to learn right now how never to allow people to manipulate your feelings, or allow their feelings to overrule what you know to be right.

In today's political scene, I see so many politicians asking me to embrace their feelings rather than face, accept, and act on the facts of a matter. Often, they themselves are ill-informed, or they purposefully ignore the evidence when it does not suit their political aims.

Currently the "environment" (a catchall phrase if ever there was one) has been raised to a very high priority it does not deserve just because it has been politicized. Since I know people are mesmerized by the term "environment", which suborns the more important events of the day, I decided yesterday to include here various libertarian thoughts on the matter as a concrete example of how a libertarian approaches a topic.

I do want to add, that although this thread is about Ayn Rand's Objectivism and libertarian thought, I discuss them only as an individualist who is interested in the nourishing and flourishing of individuals not groups or groupness. Therefore, I am also interested in the optimal economic, social, and political conditions that support the healthy growth of the individual.

My major is in Psychology and I intend to establish a career within that field. The study of the mind is captivating to me because it permits you to understand yourself on a deeper level as well as other people around you. I'm fascinated to learn why people are who they are and why they do what they do. Therefore, Psychology can impart a knowledge of internal and external forces that drive the individual to create a certain sense of self and interact with others in a given Environment. I did take an Introductory course in Philosophy, so I am somewhat associated with basic ideologies set forth by different people (Plato/Platonic Dualism). I've always been an avid reader of diverse literature from fiction to non-fiction because I feel like in some odd sense you absorb the experiences of characters through thoughtful connection and dialogue with the given text you are reading. I know I still have a lot to learn seeing as that I'm fairly young, but I look forward to doing so. It is amazing to be around other thinkers who appreciate and validate my own interest in intellectual activity such as reading and debate of Philosophical issues.

In so far as Politics, I do define myself as a Liberal Democrat because I tend to be liberal in Social and Economic Policies. However, I find labeling ourselves to be problematic because even if you are Conservative, it does not necessarily mean that there is an issue or two you lean more toward the left on. Sometimes it seems as if we are more concerned with whether we are Democrats or Republicans rather than focusing on societal problems thaat need our active citizenship in order to alleviate or possibly even be taken care of altogether.

With my College, believe it or not, the majority of people seem to lean towards the Right on the diversity of Political issues. What I find to be disconcerting, is that despite all of the conversations we have, it does not seem like we are being active enough and trying to promote changes to the problems we find faults with from a Governmental perspective. It does seem like Politicians are only focusing upon power, money, and the vote instead of sincerely addressing/defining problems, work towards finding solutions, and then making a real difference to enhance the quality of life for humanity and the earth as a whole. Perhaps this obsessive labeling of Democrat/Republican only contributes to the problem because this causes us to divide on two sides as opposed to joining forces to make a positive impact and increase the standard of living for everyone. Only when we can rise above labels to respect eachother and really apply solutions will we be able to call ourselves the "United" States of America. I wish Politicians did care more for the people and not their bank accounts.

Individuality within a society is very important because I feel the diversity of who we are and our talents makes for a world with immense possibility and opportunity for growth. I hope to one day open my own clinic to treat Personality and other Psychological Disorders, but the one thing that will never change is my thirst for knowledge and understanding of the world around me. Someone once said "You learn something new everyday", and I truly believe this because experience brings us new opportunities for personal growth. I know I have a great deal to learn in the years ahead of me, but I look forward to it with optimism and with the hope that I can change other peoples lives for the better whether it be as a Psychologist or just an actively good person.

:goodpost: You are such a bright light STR, you just go girl!

I can tell you have a real passion for the individual, just as I do. I am going to post a link here to the primer libertarian psychologist because his works might be of interest to you.

You are right in thinking labels are confining. This is why I emphasize that libertarian ideas are with a little "l." I also want to mention, since you took a year of philosophy, that liberatarian ideas are grounded in Aristotle rather than Plato, a major distinction.

I have spent two decades acquiring learning and experience in pursuit of human potential and individual development. At your age I did consider becoming a psychologist, however, I believe I found a better fit for my temperament and personality in what I now do: My activities are very action oriented.

Anyhoo, here is the link for you to investigate if you care to:

N. Branden

I just had another thought. Dr. Mary J. Ruwart a woman who I think just might interest you. Her seminal work is called "Healing Our World In an Age of Aggression." Her is a link to her website.

Mary Ruwart

Although STR and I have been having a discussion, I believe either one of the links or both of the links would be of interest to anyone. I still intend to continue posting here on specific topics. In addition, I am more than happy to exchange ideas with anyone who posts. I started out excited by life and I still am, if not more so!

I'm confused? How did any of my posts indicate what you just said? I consider myself to be an optimistic realist if anything, but not a pessimist. And also, I'm a male lol.

:wub: OH, excuse me, STR, I was NOT directing that remark at you, rather at other new posters. I will go and change it immediately! Please forgive me.

:thumbsup: Altered the thread so hope there is no further confusion.

I just realized that you were making a general statement right now lol. I'm sorry, but I thought it was referenced to me since we were the primary people posting here on the thread. Thank you for being understanding. I'm sorry for the mix-up. This is very intelligent discussion going on!

I think so, too. I do hope you investigate those links because I would love to hear your observations coming at it as you with a fresh eye.

That's what I enjoy about this entire forum, we have a lot of cross pollination of the decades and it is wonderful to interact this way without preconceived notions, so to speak.