http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2007/NEW01590.html

France I am glad you posted this, because I was going to! This is the largest petfood recall in history that I am aware of. I am very glad I feed dry...

But for all of you who are feeding canned or moist packets, please take a look at this list. Over fifty major brands are involved, from the very basic Food Lion and other store brands on up to Iams and Eukanuba and other popular choices.

Take your dogs OFF of these food right away if you are feeding it!

Thanks for posting! I, too, feed only dry to my girls, so they are all set. I always heard that moist and wet foods have more sugar than dry and I never saw the need to feed that.

Canned food usually has less carbohydrates than dry. The extra carbs are needed to bind the dry food together. So for cats, who need a high protein, low carb diet, canned food is actually better than dry (the carb content varies with each brand of food though). I used to feed dry only, but now I add in canned food, especially for the water content.

I feel so terrible for the dogs & cats that have been affected by this recall. :no:

Canned dogfood does have more fat which is why I only feed my doxies dry. They have a propensity to gain weight.

Dry may have more carbs but is lower in fat. I need to keep my chubby dogs from extra fat. lol

Can't really speak to catfood. Not a cat person really....so I don't know.

Interesting, I have had a couple of vets tell me that they add extra sugar to moist and wet food. And since my cat doesn't have great teeth to begin with, the wet food would only add to that issue. Plus she doesn't seem to care much for canned food. The food I give her is high in protein and fairly low carb (and tartar control to boot). Although maybe if I fattened her up a bit, she wouldn't be such a spaz!

The canned food that my cat is currently on is lower in carbs than the counterpart dry food - and these foods are specifically made to have the lowest carbs (prescription diet). There is debate in the vet community about whether or not canned food or dry food is better for cats. The thought was always dry because it helps with dental health, however now veterinary dentists are saying that the average size of cat kibble (not the larger ones specifically made for tartar control) is too small to have much of an impact on dental health anyway (although I'm not entirely convinced of that at this point). Also since canned food obviously contains water, it is very beneficial to cats, especially indoor cats that suffer from so many UTI issues.

There are some cats who won't bother with canned food, and that's fine. My cat loves it, so I give it in moderation with his dry food (he's on a diet).


What food do you feed?

Science Diet Tartar Control. She does well with it. She's never had any UTI issues, but she does have subpar teeth--apparently that's common for pure-breeds. She's a Cornish Rex. And before you call me insane for buying an expensive cat, she was supposed to better for people with allergies (husband), so we thought it would be worth it. However, he still had to get used to her. I guess there are cats that are bred to really be truly allergy free, but they are thousands of dollars and I can't justify that.

As far as giving her food with water in it, I'm not clear on why that is such a big deal. I give my cat water--she has a little fountain next to her food--so she doesn't need to get it from the food. Anyway, I don't think a higher carb diet would hurt this one, she eats a lot and is a lean, mean, meowing machine. Her metabolism has to be through the roof (I'm a little jealous).

And since we're on the subject of pet food, France, what is your opinion on Authority foods (or do you have one)? My dog is allergic to chicken and/or cornmeal, so we are limited with what we can feed her. She was on Iams for ever, then she started licking the insides of her legs until they were red and raw. So, we tried a different food, and the problem went away. (Later, I found out that Iams switched its recipe when it was purchased by SmithKline Beecham and other people's pets had issues with the change--specifically, I found a fair amount of mushers whose dogs were blowing out their coats unexpectedly early and they felt it was related to the Iams switch).

Anyway, she seems to be doing well with the Authority and she likes it--its lamb and oatmeal, all-natural, baked dry food. But I thought, you might have some insight into that specific food. The only other food that they had at PetSmart/Petco which would work was Blue Dog Bakery, so that would be an option. The sales guy said that it tastes like burned matches (don't ask me how he knows), so I went with the other.

Sorry this is so long and off the original topic, just thought it would be worthwhile to pick your brain on this matter!

I would not feed my animals Iams or Eukanuba. They are not a very quality food altho they tout themselves as a premium brand. Authority is not bad. I have fed my dogs that ... i normally alternate between Authority and NutroMax. Science Diet is not a great food either IMO but better than the dreaded IAMS. Thing with Science Diet, tho, is that some people have animals who ONLY do well with it and that is what keeps it going strong.

I have researched dog food for years and can tell you Authority is not the best but by NO MEANS even close to the worst. For the money it is a nice middle of the road food. I would love to feed a holistic food like Wellness exclusively but it gets very pricey.

As for the catfood topic, I have read multiple times that dry food formulas are better for fighting UTI's than their canned counterparts.

Lex you are correct - it was that formula switch with IAMS that took what I thought was a middle of the road product and made it inferior.

IAMS and Eukanuba are the same (same company) for those who did not know.

The Authority that I use is all natural ingredients--it's more expensive than their other stuff. We used to feed her IVD (Venison and Potato), but we were looking for something that was more convenient (the vets that carry that food are not near either of our workplaces). If it's a questionable food though, I can see if I can get the IVD online or something. I don't want anything even in the realm of close to the worst. What is the best? Is this not a good food? I don't think Wellness is that much more that the natural Authority actually, they just didn't have a chicken or cornmeal free version.

I think Iams used to be okay, a little high in fat though. When they switched to SKB and started selling it at the grocery stores, people started to notice changes. Certainly, when I took my dog off of it, she lost a couple of pounds.

The water thing with cats is that cats are notorious for not drinking a lot, so we try to increase their intake through food & through water fountains (which is a great thing to have). And overall, cats need to have a low carb, high protein diet. We see so many diabetic cats, and it's becoming more and more clear that the type of food & the eventual obesity are predisposing factors.

http://petdiets.com/ This is a good site on veterinary nutrition. I don't know much about Authority. I've seen it, and I *think* it might be a petsmart brand. I generally have not thought of it as a high quality food, but if it's working for you pup, then one cannot argue with that. There are so many brands of pet foods out there, and there is so much heated debate over which brand of food is "the best". There is no one single food that is the best for any animal. What works for one, may be terrible for another.

Do you have data to support that? That goes against literally everything I've learned.

For dogs the best rule of thumb is read the ingredients. Avoid foods that haVe a lot of fillers listed first, since the first listed are what the food is comprised mostly of.

I am not aware of two different AUthority formulas....I only know of the one. Avoid products with corn or corn by products listed at the front or near front. Foods with the meat listed best are normally best.

Some great dogfood brands are:

Canidae, Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice Formulas, Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul, Eagle Pack, Solid Gold and Wellness.

Authority is a middle of the road brand. It's really NOT that bad at all and is considered a premium food despite being a Petsmart brand. I have only used the chicken varieties, however, but would assume the lamb and rice is just as good.

No, I am just saying I have read this. I am a dog expert, not cat. But yes I have read it more than a few times on various animal forums I have frequented in the past.

Magnesium contributes to UTI's and I believe the logic was dry foods have lower content of it...

I would imagine that the thing is to look for varieties that either reduce magnesium or have lower quantities regardless of the forumula... I think cats do well with a mix of both dry and canned. We do own a cat, but she is my husband's cat and I have done SOME research but no where near like I have for dogs. I have been researching dog info for over a decade.

I don't tout this as fact, as I said I have only read this before and not done the research...

I've read the online sites about dog food analysis, and I have yet to find where they (whoever "they" are) get their information. According to the "Ingredient Myths and Facts" insertion in Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Ed.

"Myth No 1: Corn is a filler, is poorly digested and causes allergies.

Fact: Fillers are indredients that serve no nutritional purpose, and corn does not fit that description. Corn is a nutritionally superior grain compared with others used in pet foods because it contains a balance of nutrients not found in other grains. Corn provides a highly available source of complex carbohydrates and substantial quantities of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid important for heathy skin. Corn also provides essential amino acids and fiber. In a survey of veterinary dermatologists, corn was not listed among the ingredients most often suspected to cause food allergies. A review of over 200 confirmed canine cases of food allergy in the veterinary literature revealed only three were caused by corn. The same number was reported for rice."

Because a lot of these "natural" pet food companies do not have a scientific basis for a lot of their claims, it makes it difficult for vets to support them entirely.

COrn is NOT good for dogs...you want to replicate their diet they had in the wild and corn was not it. The best diet for a dog is the BARF diet.

I avoid ANY food that is mostly comprised of corn. I have researched this WAY too long and can't cite the experts from memory but will challenge any article that says otherwise about corn.

Corn is even difficult for humans to digest properly much less dogs.

Here is more info on Corn. The less reputable dogfood companies try their DARNDEST to justify the over use of corn in their products.

CORN – For some dogs, corn is difficult to digest and allergenic. Recently some dog food companies have set about defending their use of corn as a good carbohydrate source for dogs. What they have not addressed is the potential behavioral aspects of corn in the diet.

Corn is a food with a high sugar content. So, feeding a dog a diet with a high corn content can be like feeding your seven year-old a diet whose main ingredient is cotton candy. Your seven year-old is going to exhibit dramatic energy spurts and crashes, hyperactivity, lack of attention, and is not going to be very healthy overall.

In addition, corn is unusually low in tryptophan. The brain's production of serotonin depends upon nutritionally derived tryptophan. Studies indicate that chronic ingestion of diets low in tryptophan depress brain serotonin levels. Various studies have linked low tryptophan diets to increased competitive aggression, impulsive aggression, spontaneous agonistic displays, increased general motor activity. Other behavior problems such as tail chasing, fly biting, self-mutilation, self-stimulation and OCD behaviors appear to be at least partially attributable to aberrant serotonin metabolism.

Another problem with corn is it can act as an artificial stool hardener. One of the quickest ways to tell that your dog is sick is the consistency of his or her stools. If there are ingredients in the food which are falsely making the stools firm, you may delay seeking important medical treatment for your dog.

Some brands which are corn-based are Iams™, Eukanuba™, Purina™, Pedigree™, Hill’s Science Diet™,


In other words, it is not just the health aspect of corn in a dogs' diet that can prove harmful, it is the way corn can affect dog behaviors.

Since we have some studies trying to claim that corn is not necessarily a bad thing in a dog's diet (and most of these studies when peeled back are funded by dogfood makers whose dogfoods contain primarily...you guessed it corn) I take an intuitive approach and go with the studies that say it is NOT a good thing. I have seen for myself the health, coat and energy levels of dogs on foods full of corn and corn by products and those on more holistic diets such as wellness and the results speak for itself for me.

With all due respect, if you cannot cite any articles that are backed up with data to support the claims, then how do I know what you're saying is true? I cited a reference about corn, so now challenge that claim.

Where are you getting this information? According to veterinary dermatologists, including the ones at my university, corn is not a top allergen.

I feed Science Diet, Purina, Royal Canin. My animals, minus one with a rare disorder that he had when we adopted him, are all doing fabulously.

I can cite MANY MANY articles - I am saying not from memory. But I just cited one previously.

The studies saying corn is okay is a bunch of hype for the dogfood makers who are chock full of it.

If I had the time, I'd cite more data than you can shake a stick at.

I would surely have to read more than ONE study saying corn is okay after having read many professionals tell the pitfalls over it for over the past decade.

Sorry, I have to be done here. Vets & vet students are fully aware of people who think they are nutrition experts simply because they read things on the interet. Although this may not be the case for you, you have failed to show me sufficient scientific evidence to support any of these "natural" pet food claims - those companies know how to market as well - and breeders and "dog experts" are their targets. I have been looking into all of this for a while, and I would love to find info. to support these "natural" foods over the major labels, but it's just not there.

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SOrry France but you have also not cited anything reputable to make me believe that corn is GOOD for dogs. WIth all due respect one vet telling you this does not change years of studies. Most of the studies I refer to are also from VETERINARIANS. I am very meticulous when i research as in not just taking what I read on the Net for face value. I always check credentials.

I won't debate this here any longer as this was not intended to turn adversarial.

Vets & vet students are fully aware of people who think they are nutrition experts simply because they read things on the interet. With all due respect I am not one of those people you are referring to and most vets I have conversed with are NOT nutrition experts.

To anyone who wants my opinion, avoid a food that is mostly comprised of corn or corn byproduct.

For the record....my posts were not intended to be adversarial. My thoughts are one part intuition, two parts former research, and one part my own experience with these products with my own dogs.

My posts are always my own opinions only.

The Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Edition is a book that is used by many veterinarians and in veterinary universities. The contributing authors are Dr.'s Hand, Thatcher, Remillard. & Roudebush, and the consulting editors are Dr.'s Morris & Novotny. along with pages of contributors - all board certificied veterinary specialists.

Look, I'm not saying that these other foods are terrible. All I'm saying is that there is no basis for these internet sites that claim that people are slowly killing their pets by feeding science diet, etc. These companies do not market veterinarians for a reason. I've worked for vets who have tried to contact these "natural" food companies to get information and more often than not they get inaccurate information. A vet cannot possibly put a stamp of approval on foods which he/she cannot guarantee; that's malpractice.

My pets are all on prescription diets put out by SD & Purina, and there is no other food that comes close to those as of now. (Although I have recommended Innova EVO dry for diabetic cats that will not eat canned purina DM b/c the innova dry has less carbs than then DM).

Most vets I have spoken to for decades France are NOT nutritionists. They also know very little about breeding yet dispense advice.

I am not knocking vets. They are fabulous for treating animals, but in my experience most fall short on nutrition and when I have asked what class requirements they had for animal nutrtion in college most took only a class or two.

Maybe that curriculum has changed today, but as of even a couple of short years ago, very little was taught in veterinary school on nutrition. Just like medical doctors are not nutrition experts for humans either.

I am not a proponent for holistic foods in general. I am just not an advocate for any food that lists corn as the primary ingredient. I have seen far too many dogs with lackluster coat issues and digestive tract issues when fed diets high in corn or corn by product.

I have never had healthier looking dogs either than when I had them on the BARF diet. Unfortunately, feeding raw is time consuming and expensive so I had to discontinue it but if I am ever able to do it again I will in a heartbeat.

I am not saying dogs will die from Science Diet and likewise products but my experience has been that these products are not all they are touted to be. And another reason I am leary of a vet dispensing nutrition advice to me is based on the fact that Science Diet is one of the leading foods on their shelves (for those who sell food in their offices). They sell it and push it because they have deals with this company for the most part. If you have had success with Science Diet, continue, but I could not in good conscious advocate the product to anyone asking me what is a decent food vs not.....

The only food I would roll my eyes on and gag if someone pusehd as "good" would be something like Ole Roy. I think that is stuff is AWFUL! Very subpar ingredients and low quality.

But again, I want to make it known that I was not trying to be adversarial in any post, just chatting about something that is near and dear to me - the Canine.

I've been through all of this before with my friends; they have put me through the ringer, and honestly I think I've come out for the better, and even recommending more "natural" foods as an alternative to the bigger company foods in some instances. I've worked for vets who only sold more natural products and not the bigger labels.

I agree that a lot of vets lack in the nutrition department, but only because they choose not to employ their knowledge of nutrition (I think the nutrition courses have changed for the better in more recent yeears). I've read a lot of online comments about how vet students are taught by these major food companies, and that's just not true. And most of the vets that I mentioned above are certified veterinary nutritionists, as well as internists.

I've been working really hard on getting information ready for the vet that I work for over the summer. He's pretty closed-minded on some issues, including nutrition, so I'm trying to get him to look into other dietary options for either those clients who are interested or those pets who need it.

Iv'e noticed I've been feeling a little queezy.

Although not affected by this recall, Wellness food, along with, Eagle Pack, Natura (Healthwise, California Natural, Innova), Wysong, and a few others do have some canned foods made my Menu Foods. What a hard fall from grace. I have to find the actual source of this information though. A friend of mine who feeds Innova said she got this from the dogaware site.

And according to a few articles, rat poison has been found in the recalled foods.

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/kho...on.b8e0573.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2975912&page=1&US=true

That's it. I'm putting my dog on a diet of prairie dogs and grass--I think that's what she would prefer to eat anyway (though she may add a neighborhood cat on occasion if she had her druthers). :silly:

Wow, thousands of possible cases. unbelievable. poor pets and their families. it's really just heartbreaking and infuriating.

THis is why making your own petfood is the safest bet. I wish I still had the money and time to feed mine the BARF diet.

From my understanding, and what we've learned in school from board certified veterinary nutritionists, there are no nutritional advantages gained by feeding BARF, but there are 3 potential risks:
1. nutritional imbalance
2. GI problems from bones
3. poisoning from E. coli and Salmonella

I know there are some vets who will recommend this type of diet, whether it is BARF or the prey-model type diet, but there are a lot of vets who will not b/c of the public health concerns. And freezing does not kill salmonella, it simply causes the organism to enter a hypobiotic state.

Diets prepared on the raw meaty bones principle were found to be at high risk (80% of sampled diets) of containing Salmonella. Dogs fed these diets had a 30% risk of shedding Salmonella in their faeces, presenting risk to their own as well as their owners' health. No commercial tinned or dry foods contained this pathogen and no dogs fed commercial foods were shedding this potential zoonosis. Joffe DJ and Schlesinger DP. 2002. "Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets" Can Vet J 43:441-442

After some of the stuff I saw and learned in parasitology class, among other things, I'm way too chikcen (no pun intended) to feed raw.

Our cat Wilber the Great, gets only the best. Science Diet dry and a third of a can of store brand tuna in the morning. At fifty cents a can thats 17 cents a day and the big guy is thirteen years old and still climbs over six foot fences.

When my sister in LA (lala-land) told me about the raw diet 2 years ago, I thought she was kidding. Do people really just buy raw food at the grocery store, and throw it down for their animals to eat? That's what she told me and I told her there is no way I would do that. That meat has been sitting there growing things. I don't know what the BARF diet is--I thought it was bananas, apples, rice and something, that you give kids with the runs (or constipation--you can tell I don't have kids). So, now I get that this is what you've been talking about--sorry, blonde moment there. Does the raw meat have to be fresh? Do you sear it at least?

Now, if my dog and I were out in the wild--which would mean she'd be an African wild dog and I don't think she'd really be hanging with me, but anyway--if I were out in the wild and I killed a rabbit for food, I would consider letting my dog eat that. Of course, in that case, it would be fresh and the bacteria would not have grown on the muscle of the animal (I wouldn't eat the skin or anything within the GI tract though--ick).

The thing I really don't get is why should I feed my dog what she would have had in the wild? She's not a wild animal, she's been through generations of domestication--her GI tract included. I don't think she'd do all that well with it, frankly. And I think she'd eat other people's garbage rather than join up with some other dogs and take down a cow or an elk, say. Unless elk tastes like Greenies--then I think she might be interested.

BTW, Greenies are okay right? My dog adores them, but they look so unnatural. She also would enjoy chocolate and chicken bones, so I don't necessarily go by what she enjoys.

BARF is far a safer alternative if done right then these commercial varieties. But that is as far as I am getting into this debate because obviously those posting have different opinions. This thread is not about arguing the merits of for raw or against. I simply mentioned that if I had the time, that is defnitely what I would go back to. I'd rather feed my dog food that I prepare vs food laced with poison that's for sure.

As for greenies, no they are not safe. A choking hazard. I do not know why they are still on the market.

And yes, those cases have been well documented.

I didn't mean to make you mad, I just now realized what you were talking about with BARF--it's fine if you don't want a debate. But,

Do you buy raw meat at a grocery store, unwrap it and put it on the floor for your dogs? Or do you sear it or something first? Do you live in the states? I think the UK and possibly Canada irradiate their meat to get rid of bacteria, thereby making it safer for a lot longer. Perhaps it's not a big deal then to eat meat raw. Of course, they can't do that in the US because people flip out at the word "radiation". Seriously, I'm just curious about this whole process.

Sorry this did get so off-topic, don't answer if you'd rather not, I guess. I just think it's interesting.

LOL i am not mad at all. I just didn't want the debate to turn ugly. Takes a lot more than that to make me mad. LOL There are two different schools of thought on the BARF diet, and it is always emotionally charged that is why I was not sure if the debate was appropriate for this venue. There is research to support both pro and con for BARF. It is up to the individual to use their commonsense to decide which is better for them and what makes more sense to them. Many times there is no right or wrong way about most things. YOu have to educate yourself and make the decisions that seem right for you. I don't take anything at face value without doing a lot of research and drawing the conclusions that make the most sense. Just because a doctor or a VEt tells me something does not make it fact. I go off and do more research to support it because like it or not, vets and doctors are wrong a lot. I have had a dog almost paralyzed and dead due to the inept advice from a Vet. I had to go out on my own to resolve the problem.

I am heading out right now but will respond to your questions when i return!

haha lex, I love the way you wrote out your thought process on that, and I agree, although I do understand the arguments for raw feeding, but I think domestic dogs/cats are too far removed from that. However, if I found compelling evidence on the contrary, I would be interested in that (but still worried about the public health aspect).

Greenies were a big problem for a while & they were responsible for esophageal obstructions, especially in small dogs. I've heard that the formulation has since changed so that it is easier to digest. My little dog LOVED them, but she only had about 6 teeth in her head, so she really couldn't get through them, and I only gave them to her when I was there to monitor her.