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 Netiquette/staying On Topic
LilRedDevilLizzy
Posted: May 30 2008, 02:06 PM


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So its ok for the regulars like yourelf to voice their frustration but not everyone else? Are you feeling picked on and upset for some reason?

Imagine how the "trolls" are feeling as we are being villinafied.

This post has been edited by LilRedDevilLizzy on May 30 2008, 02:12 PM
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bigEfan
Posted: May 30 2008, 02:46 PM


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Well, now...I don't recall anyone in this thread speaking of Elliott's body parts. Nor have I ever mentioned them at this site. I haven't even discussed his hair, his clothes, etc. here that I can recall except to maybe to say he's looking mighty fine or something to that effect. If someone can find a post, please feel free to point it out to me. I stuck up and drooled about the white scene in the OW video when many others couldn't stand it. I'm guilty of that much.

It is my right however, if I chose to, to discuss whatever body part/s, whether they are Elliott's or not at any length I choose to at another site in a private thread that accepts that type of posting. Let's get real, it happens all over the place....not just about Elliott. There are fanfics on Cookie's site, Taylor's...those are the only ones I have any knowledge of. Haven't wrote one myself but I sure have enjoyed some of the creative and talented writing I have read.

Those that did nothing wrong shouldn't have to worry about anything now should they? If you have a clear conscience and are able to sleep well at night knowing you did nothing to invade someone's privacy or hurt them...then all is good in your world. If super sleuths didn't access private threads just to see what other fansite posters were discussing in those private threads then they wouldn't know about any discussions on body parts and/or other controversial subjects there. Don't people realize most that stuff is all in fun and not taken seriously. Those that are offended just don't need to be reading that stuff in the first place. It's their right to be disgusted or whatever as much as it is for others to enjoy. No one that I'm aware of is being forced to read naughty stuff at any fansite.

I haven't tried to lump all fans in one big pot...must I say again, that I find there are many truely wonderful people here. I'd hope others would do the same. I enjoy it when someone wants to call me to task. If I'm way of base or wrong about something, I am more than willingly to apologize. It's not like I've never been wrong in my life and haven't had to apologize.

Linda-I'm sorry if you feel mocked about your mispelling...I happen to like that "new " word whether it's in the dictionary or not. And I'm not being a smartass...I'm totally serious about it. So, I'm sorry if it made you feel bad cuz I think I used it in a post.

ETA- I love Elliott just as much today as I did 2 years ago, if not more...since I've seen him concert since that time. I will always be a fan and hope he produces great music for years to come.

This post has been edited by bigEfan on May 30 2008, 03:39 PM


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Priceless quote by bigEfan after just hearing Elliott sing live, " I officially love Elliott Yamin MORE than I EVER have!"
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realitymom
Posted: May 30 2008, 03:51 PM


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Jackie, I have no idea what happened w/ you & what was said, but I am sorry that you were hurt like that.

I have always been one that speaks my mind here. Sometimes my opinion is the complete opposite of the thread I post in, but I have never felt like I couldn't post what I felt.

I do not feel that ANY of you ladies are trolls, or have ever been guilty of trolling any threads I read. (& if any of you are male, PLEASE forgive my assumption!)

We all are fans of Elliott & that should matter before anything. It doesn't matter what Elliott site anyone frequents...at least Elliott fans are still active & passionate about him! (Lord willing, it will remain that way for years! smile.gif )

Linda, spellcheck is overrated in my world. I misspell more often than not, but tis true, I have created some very fun words! heehee But yeah, it is never fun to be made of. I hate that you felt put down or made fun of. sad.gif

Lack of Elliott news seems to put all of us on edge, least IMO.

Personally, I love Etrain, I love the emoticons & think a positive, upbeat attitude is pretty dayum awesome! Yet, I still respect those who do not like a 'puppy dogs & rainbow' attitude & appreciate/expect that the same sentiment be returned.

I hope everyone can reach an understanding & pray that all we Elliott fans can enjoy the success of our favorite American Idol alum together.


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JackieB
Posted: May 30 2008, 07:01 PM


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QUOTE (Linda4Elliott @ May 30 2008, 01:52 PM)
I feel like I am left with no other option but to jump in and voice my two cents on the many different issues that are being discussed here even though it goes against my grain. I'm am very sure it won't be eloquent, persuasive, or even organized, as many thoughts are flowing through my mind.

First I will address the topic of people not being able to voice their opinion. I think what it comes down to, is people want to voice their opinion and expect to have no disagreement or backlash of any kind. I will continue to speak my mind when I disagree with the notion of ogling Elliott's body parts, which incidentally has been an outcry of women for decades, centuries even, and rightly so. I find it offensive and inappropriate to reduce someone to a mere sexual object. I guess it must be considered okay to do that to a male as opposed to a female. And exactly how many times is it necessary to bring up the length of Elliott's hair, his clothing, his lack of blogging, etc... We already know how each person feels. Must we litter every thread with these insignificant things? It becomes redundant.

Secondly, the issue which Jackie brought up concerning a "pizza lunch" in Richmond. I think several people have said that they tried to resolve the issue privately, even though from the first mention here on the etrain, everyone in attendance at this lunch has been implicated in some kind of wrong doing. I have not received ONE pm to ask me anything about the lunch, or my involvement and/or participation in what has been described. I have however received nasty pm's, even somewhat threatening in nature, that were accusatory, from people who were not present so they have no firsthand knowledge of anything. Also someone in this thread has mentioned that they are disappointed in "those involved". This person was someone I had considered a friend. We had shared an online friendship for well over a year on Moosak and talked almost daily. When Moosak folded, we conversed through myspace and here. We even met once, share nice conversation, and even hugs. Not ONCE has this person come to me and asked for any clarification or if I was involved in any wrong doing. I am terribly let down and disappointed that our friendship meant no more to you than that.

As far as this matter goes, I choose not to defend myself other than saying, I hope my reputation here speaks for itself. I have been kind to every single person here. I make sure to greet any newcomers. I try very hard to include everyone in conversations. I try to respond to every post that is directed at me. I try not to offend with anything I post. I often make apologies, if I feel that I inadvertently have done that. Not just privately, but publicly.

I will allow people to draw their own conclusions. I also, will not address this matter again in anyway. I have done nothing wrong. I leave this thread with my integrity intact. I will carry on with my Elliott love and admiration.

btw, I used spell check this time which I forgot to do in a previous post I submitted in haste. Now maybe my typo's won't be mocked.


QUOTE
First I will address the topic of people not being able to voice their opinion. I think what it comes down to, is people want to voice their opinion and expect to have no disagreement or backlash of any kind.


Linda, it would be nice if people could voice their opinion without the tag-team becoming so defensive that the poster actually goes away because they feel ganged up on. Itís OK for someone not to like a particular song, or question his choices of self-promotion (or lack there of). Just because someone does those things doesnít mean they arenít as devoted a fan or they deserve to be batted down. If someone posts ďI never liked the song You Are The OneĒ instead of someone asking what it is about it they donít think works or asking is it because you feel the market wonít embrace it, they are jumped on with 10 posts that insinuate that roses grow out of Elliottís ass and sunshine was made specifically to shine upon him and how dare they not like anything he does when itís obvious to anyone with half a brain that he is perfection personified. Elliott has said on several occasions that he has no need to surround himself with ďyes-menĒ and that his favorite judge on idol was Simon because he gave honest opinions. Heís not going to be crushed if he discovered someone had a contrary opinion, yet many here act as though he needs to be constantly protected.

QUOTE
I will continue to speak my mind when I disagree with the notion of ogling Elliott's body parts, which incidentally has been an outcry of women for decades, centuries even, and rightly so. I find it offensive and inappropriate to reduce someone to a mere sexual object.


Women have also been throwing their panties to rock-stars since Elvis perfected the bump and grind up on the stage. Go ahead and be outraged when some of us have other ideas about him rather than Mothering him, but remember that right up there tied with the artistry, the reason men even aspire to make music is because it drives women wild.

(I donít really get it though, partly it offends you and partly you post that THUD guy every time a hot new picture surfaces.)

QUOTE
And exactly how many times is it necessary to bring up the length of Elliott's hair, his clothing, his lack of blogging, etc... We already know how each person feels. Must we litter every thread with these insignificant things? It becomes redundant.


I donít appreciate the hair and clothing talk so much myself, but you know what, this site isnít about me. Itís not about you. Itís about ALL of Elliottís fans, or at least it should be, and if someone brings up his hair again, or his teeth, again, well, we donít need to respond to it if we donít want to. Maybe somebody else here will feel like responding to it, so just let it pass. It doesnít need to be your personal mission to provide an opinion on every single post made. Iím not interested in many redundant posts, so I donít respond to them. Nobody is making you partake in conversations you donít want to have or are sick of. But the ďregularsĒ who may be sick of certain topics are not this whole site or his entire fanbase.

QUOTE
Secondly, the issue which Jackie brought up concerning a "pizza lunch" in Richmond. I think several people have said that they tried to resolve the issue privately, even though from the first mention here on the etrain, everyone in attendance at this lunch has been implicated in some kind of wrong doing. I have not received ONE pm to ask me anything about the lunch, or my involvement and/or participation in what has been described. I have however received nasty pm's, even somewhat threatening in nature, that were accusatory, from people who were not present so they have no firsthand knowledge of anything
.

The ďpizza lunch issueĒ has never been brought to light on this board until some of the people who participated in that incident got indignant about internet privacy being violated, which, for obvious reasons, I found laughable. It was never my intention to bring what happened to me out in the public here, but reading those posts about Ďwhat I post here better stay hereí and so on just lit me up. I think most would understand why.

QUOTE
Also someone in this thread has mentioned that they are disappointed in "those involved". This person was someone I had considered a friend. We had shared an online friendship for well over a year on Moosak and talked almost daily. When Moosak folded, we conversed through myspace and here. We even met once, share nice conversation, and even hugs. Not ONCE has this person come to me and asked for any clarification or if I was involved in any wrong doing. I am terribly let down and disappointed that our friendship meant no more to you than that.


You are let down? You? Can you imagine for a minute how let down and disappointed I was when I found out all of you, who I also thought were my friends, sat around having a hen-session about something intensely personal in my life? And then embellished it? And then passed judgment about me? And then concluded that my erroneous behavior is so disrespectful to Elliott? Youíve got to be kidding me. Tell me about your disappointment, Linda, you poor thing.

But the issue with what happened at that lunch is secondary to what is happening each and every day on this site. The E-Train is Elliottís only official anything, and it needs to be preserved. All of his fans must feel welcome here and people canít continue to be chased away and run off or youíll have nothing left here but a handful of Stepford fans all sitting around cooing over every move Elliott makes.







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JackieB
Posted: May 30 2008, 07:04 PM


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QUOTE (realitymom @ May 30 2008, 03:51 PM)
Jackie, I have no idea what happened w/ you & what was said, but I am sorry that you were hurt like that.

I have always been one that speaks my mind here. Sometimes my opinion is the complete opposite of the thread I post in, but I have never felt like I couldn't post what I felt.

I do not feel that ANY of you ladies are trolls, or have ever been guilty of trolling any threads I read. (& if any of you are male, PLEASE forgive my assumption!)

We all are fans of Elliott & that should matter before anything. It doesn't matter what Elliott site anyone frequents...at least Elliott fans are still active & passionate about him! (Lord willing, it will remain that way for years! smile.gif )

Linda, spellcheck is overrated in my world. I misspell more often than not, but tis true, I have created some very fun words! heehee But yeah, it is never fun to be made of. I hate that you felt put down or made fun of. sad.gif

Lack of Elliott news seems to put all of us on edge, least IMO.

Personally, I love Etrain, I love the emoticons & think a positive, upbeat attitude is pretty dayum awesome! Yet, I still respect those who do not like a 'puppy dogs & rainbow' attitude & appreciate/expect that the same sentiment be returned.

I hope everyone can reach an understanding & pray that all we Elliott fans can enjoy the success of our favorite American Idol alum together.

I wish we could all just adore him however we feel like adoring him without offending one another. I loved your post, and thank you.


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shatner8
Posted: May 30 2008, 09:15 PM


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Am been reading these posts with some interest, not understanding it all, but
as a long time member of the E train, it makes me just sad, just sad, and a bit confused how this has all transpired to hurt feelings, disappointments and violations of privacy, and misunderstandings. Tolerance is a powerful thing, imo and the ability to set aside differences for a common interest, for the promotionn of this guy, Mr Elliott Yamin, isn't that what this is all about?
I am sorry that you have been hurt Jackie, I can feel your hurt, and have enjoyed your posts over the past several months, you seem like a really cool person I hope to meet someday.


Honestly, doesn't the E train have room for all of Elliott's fans, those who lust for him, those who want to mother him, the rainbow and flower people, the cynics, the amused. the disgruntled ? heck, I have probably been all of these things, one time or another on this site. I still adore the guy, but at times, I had questioned what is going on, what is coming next, etc, etc, etc,
At the end of the day, I am still his fan, pure and simple

This post has been edited by shatner8 on May 30 2008, 09:18 PM


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kbug
Posted: May 31 2008, 11:44 AM


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QUOTE
I will continue to speak my mind when I disagree with the notion of ogling Elliott's body parts, which incidentally has been an outcry of women for decades, centuries even, and rightly so. I find it offensive and inappropriate to reduce someone to a mere sexual object. I guess it must be considered okay to do that to a male as opposed to a female.


I'm at a loss as to how this relates to the topics being discussed in this thread, however - the fact that you feel free to speak your mind whenever you take the notion should apply to eveyone who posts at eTrain, sadly that isn't the case. How often are your posts moved to Off The Record (other than the posts responding to us trolls) if you have a differing opinion?

QUOTE
Secondly, the issue which Jackie brought up concerning a "pizza lunch" in Richmond. I think several people have said that they tried to resolve the issue privately, even though from the first mention here on the etrain, everyone in attendance at this lunch has been implicated in some kind of wrong doing. I have not received ONE pm to ask me anything about the lunch, or my involvement and/or participation in what has been described. I have however received nasty pm's, even somewhat threatening in nature, that were accusatory, from people who were not present so they have no firsthand knowledge of anything. Also someone in this thread has mentioned that they are disappointed in "those involved". This person was someone I had considered a friend. We had shared an online friendship for well over a year on Moosak and talked almost daily. When Moosak folded, we conversed through myspace and here. We even met once, share nice conversation, and even hugs. Not ONCE has this person come to me and asked for any clarification or if I was involved in any wrong doing. I am terribly let down and disappointed that our friendship meant no more to you than that.


So your opinion is that once Jackie found out that her privacy had been invaded, extremely personal information spread that had nothing to do with Elliott or eTrain, form rules of another Elliott site broken and disregarded, and the fact that HER personal business became lunch gossip at a eTrain gathering that involved not only eTrainers but also a mod for eTrain - that it was HER place to contact each and every person in attendance to find out what if any role they played in the smear campaign?? What happened goes against EVERYTHING] the eTrain claims to be about. Contacting Jackie would have been the first thing that came to mind after this incident if I had been in attendance - to make her aware of the personal information these people had stolen from another site about her and discussed openly at lunch. This site has been tarnished by the actions of some of its members/mod/s, the very members who claim to promote, support and do whatever is best for Elliott.
Sadly, in the end when all the hurt feelings are over and done with and things have gone back to how they once were, it is Elliott that suffers from this as so many people have been turned off by his official site and the way it's managed.

QUOTE
btw, I used spell check this time which I forgot to do in a previous post I submitted in haste. Now maybe my typo's won't be mocked.


Consider yourself lucky that it was only your spelling mocked and not your personal life.

I've given up on trying to relate anything to Elliott or his team. The only contact would be thru eTrain minded individuals who don't consider Elliott fans as a whole. This makes me sad for Elliott - there is a whole other world outside of eTrain, a huge huge base of Elliott fans who are ignored because as Georgia said "They aren't identified as eTrainers" truly sad.
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SoulMusicRocks
Posted: Jun 1 2008, 09:47 AM


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It seems like many people feel personally attacked/offended and that is not a good thing. Optimistic realism is probably the best bet because we all have such divergent opinions and personalities. I respect and appreciate every woman and man in this forum because we all contribute and evolve this place by our words and actions. There haven't been as many people logging onto the site and posting regularly as in the past. And whatever your opinion on the issues discussed in this thread, this is a fact that should give all of us pause to think how our words and actions affect those around us.

Constructive criticism, IMHO, is a beautiful thing because it helps push you to a higher level of achievement. Some of my best progress I've made in my life has derived from honest mentors who helped to identify and then improve the areas with which I needed it. Healthy and constructive criticism for Elliott and for this site will hopefully have a similarly positive result. As long as we can maintain respect for one another as people, we can have tough discussions that end up being beneficial for the majority rather than just a specific group. First and foremost, all of us are Elliott fans who are here to discuss, learn more about, and keep up with the latest news. (I admit, though, I write a lot in the off-topics forum too lol, but variety is the spice of life as the addage says).

What happened to Jackie does not reflect well on the site and I feel bad for her. To be frank, this is why I do not post pictures of myself, family, or very personal information anywhere on the internet. I might say general things like being a College student, major etc, but not anything very personal. Not here, myspace, or any other social site I belong to. Etrain and these social sites are public domain with which anyone can access (as far as my knowledge). Anyway, I'm sorry that you were hurt Jackie and I hope you will forgive and keep on posting here. You are a great person.

Shatner8's post upthread hits the nail on the head, IMO. This can and should be a place where everyone is welcome. I love reading posts that give an innovative approach or great solution to a problem I hadn't thought of. That usually is what comes from dissent from someone who is unhappy with the status quo. It doesn't matter whether you are perpetually optimistic with all things Elliott or like providing commentary/constructive criticism. I think there is still a certain level of defensiveness from what happened S5 here and that has turned into calling amazing/fellow Elliott fans trolls.....which IMHO is wrong.

It would be incredible to see more traffic here and new names begin to post regularly. Maybe all of us can come together as a community to help make that happen by addressing these issues? That way all people can feel like they are being heard and make the necessary changes that enhance the community. The wounds are still really apparent on both "sides", but maybe we can realize there is only one side as Elliott fans?
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chloewannabee
Posted: Jun 1 2008, 01:29 PM


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TROLLS?!!!!!
The last time I saw any trolls, was over on the scary boards, particularly towards the end of season 5. And they were out in force. So much so, that I am surprised they didnt start their own website"believeittoyoursouliamatroll.com"
And of course, every now and then, someone will post a thread with porn and such, but not very often. and it always gets deleted asap. But i can think of NO etrainer, past or present, who i would even consider troll-like. None. Just because someone agrees to disagree at times, in no way does that make them a troll. In my opinion, everyone here on the etrain is a die hard Elliott fan. Who would want to be here otherwise. so lets all take a deep breath, sit back,, relax, and make this site like it was back in the day. we can agree to disagree, thats what makes this world keep spinning.
chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif


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onlyforelliott
Posted: Jun 1 2008, 01:36 PM


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QUOTE (Sk8888 @ May 29 2008, 12:36 PM)
Netiquette guidelines and definitions. 

You may not agree with the definition of trolling.  However, this may be useful in determing whether or not to start a new thread in order to allow the original thread to remain on topic, while creating a thread to explore and discuss the new topic.

http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ia_nq_send.htm#ontopic

I found what I consider to be a much better article on forum etiquette.

The use of the words "trolling" and "trolls" in this thread has really bothered me as I have always taken troll to mean someone who is not an active member of the board who suddenly appears and whose sole intent is to cause trouble. I know of absolutely no one on Etrain who fits this description.

In my opinion this article is great. I think it is worthy of its own topic. I'll let one of the moderators decide that.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1...oard.html?cat=4

EDITED TO ADD:

SoulMusicRocks, I think your post is wonderful.

Chloe, I was writing my response while yours was posting and was surprised to see it between mine and SoulMusicRock's post after I hit the Submit button.

This post has been edited by onlyforelliott on Jun 1 2008, 01:39 PM
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onlyforelliott
Posted: Jun 1 2008, 05:01 PM


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In some forums, it is considered spamming if the same person posts two consecutive posts, but I have never seen that guideline used here, so I'm going to add some things that I have thought about since I posted earlier.

I wish that a set of guidelines similar to the ones in the article I quoted above would be written and implemented for this forum. It would certainly clear up a lot of confusion,

Upon reflection, I have seen at least one instance of what I would judge to be trolling in recent months. The Ace Young thread had some what I would consider to be inflammatory remarks by a new member. I have no idea if this member voluntarily left the board after that or if there was intervention by the moderators.

I applaud SK8888 for what I consider to be a fair and even-handed attempt to discuss these issues. I wish she would have used the definition of hijacking instead of trolling. According to the article:


Hijacking involves posting a new idea or topic on someone else's thread. Sometimes, if the topic is related, this is okay, but try to post new threads if you need to start a different discussion. People who are interested in your topic can go to your thread and you won't offend anyone else this way.


Reference: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1...oard.html?cat=4 (Page 3)

Hijacking is a tough one to call because there is always an ebb and flow of ideas in a thread, Often in the natural progression of things, what starts out as one topic ends up as something entirely different I know that there have been times when I might read the first few posts in a topic and lose interest only to learn that what is currently be discussed is of high interest to me. But there have been other times when I'm reading a topic of interest and I am suddenly facing a series of posts that are weakly related at best and which I judge to be divisive. It doesn't happen often but I do think that it has happened often enough lately to warrant this thread.

SoulMusicRocks presented an excellent argument for the need for discussion. I totally agree with his request that we all treat each other with respect.

This post has been edited by onlyforelliott on Jun 1 2008, 05:57 PM
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Taratova
Posted: Jun 1 2008, 06:23 PM


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I came off the AOL message boards as a fan of Elliott.We E fans posted threads about our admiration for Elliott. We AOL fans could not post without someone interjecting something negative about Elliott yet we pretty much behaved regarding the other threads posted about other idols. we saw it all, the trolls..

We got to expect it from some who just were totally negative and attacked everything we said positive.

I know we are all different but we all have a different perspective on what it is to be a fan. The more positive things I read about Elliott the more I like it because of what I had endured on the AOL boards by the trolls.

Hijacking threads, well, I know there has been talk about changing subjects and sometimes it does veer off . It just sometimes happens. It then can become a conversation of the regulars too and many can feel ignored when they post as if there remarks are always overlooked.

And talking about too much personal information. All I got to say is let it make everyone a wiser person not to trust too much regarding sharing too much information. Just one trouble maker can start the ball rolling and before you know it the whole thing changes. This also has happened on the Aol boards too. I have been contacted a few times with the same situation of some fans who trusted and shared and it became a blatant weapon to make fun of that person.

Some just love to gossip and find fault. Some just think more in the negative and post as such, not blatantly,not a troll by a long shot, some think very positive and post in that regard . Some are business and serious and post that way. We are all different and that is what makes us an individual.

I would like to see more fans , but I know by the number of guests there are more readers than posters on the E-train. We are all fans of Elliott .I put Elliott first not one fan club. I belong to them all anyway. Regardless what name of the fanclub we identify with the most ;we are all working for the good of Elliott and that is the main great thing about everyone.



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My soul was stirred. It took the voice of Elliott Yamin to wake up my senses and bring me back into the world of music.
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itslate
Posted: Jun 1 2008, 09:51 PM


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Onlyforelliott, I agree, I think hijacking is a milder term.


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Sk8888
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 01:32 AM


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QUOTE (onlyforelliott @ Jun 1 2008, 11:36 AM)
QUOTE (Sk8888 @ May 29 2008, 12:36 PM)
Netiquette guidelines and definitions.†

You may not agree with the definition of trolling.† However, this may be useful in determing whether or not to start a new thread in order to allow the original thread to remain on topic, while creating a thread to explore and discuss the new topic.

http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ia_nq_send.htm#ontopic

I found what I consider to be a much better article on forum etiquette.

The use of the words "trolling" and "trolls" in this thread has really bothered me as I have always taken troll to mean someone who is not an active member of the board who suddenly appears and whose sole intent is to cause trouble. I know of absolutely no one on Etrain who fits this description.

In my opinion this article is great. I think it is worthy of its own topic. I'll let one of the moderators decide that.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1...oard.html?cat=4

EDITED TO ADD:

SoulMusicRocks, I think your post is wonderful.

Chloe, I was writing my response while yours was posting and was surprised to see it between mine and SoulMusicRock's post after I hit the Submit button.

OFE,

Thanks for the alternative link.

I'll definitely be absorbing it.

The material out there to serve as reference or guidance in this area is really thin.

I'm glad that you found something that may be more palatable.

Thank you also for taking the time.


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Sandy5
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 08:39 AM


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Like Taratova, I also started on the AOL boards during Season 5. I later joined here and at Yaminions and later at the Flipside. I left the AOL boards entirely because of the trolling...not just disagreements or differences of opinions...this was true trolling. They would post disgusting stuff on every single thread. Trust me, nothing here could be correctly called trolling.
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JackieB
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 10:32 AM


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QUOTE (SoulMusicRocks @ Jun 1 2008, 09:47 AM)
It seems like many people feel personally attacked/offended and that is not a good thing. Optimistic realism is probably the best bet because we all have such divergent opinions and personalities. I respect and appreciate every woman and man in this forum because we all contribute and evolve this place by our words and actions. There haven't been as many people logging onto the site and posting regularly as in the past. And whatever your opinion on the issues discussed in this thread, this is a fact that should give all of us pause to think how our words and actions affect those around us.

Constructive criticism, IMHO, is a beautiful thing because it helps push you to a higher level of achievement. Some of my best progress I've made in my life has derived from honest mentors who helped to identify and then improve the areas with which I needed it. Healthy and constructive criticism for Elliott and for this site will hopefully have a similarly positive result. As long as we can maintain respect for one another as people, we can have tough discussions that end up being beneficial for the majority rather than just a specific group. First and foremost, all of us are Elliott fans who are here to discuss, learn more about, and keep up with the latest news. (I admit, though, I write a lot in the off-topics forum too lol, but variety is the spice of life as the addage says).

What happened to Jackie does not reflect well on the site and I feel bad for her. To be frank, this is why I do not post pictures of myself, family, or very personal information anywhere on the internet. I might say general things like being a College student, major etc, but not anything very personal. Not here, myspace, or any other social site I belong to. Etrain and these social sites are public domain with which anyone can access (as far as my knowledge). Anyway, I'm sorry that you were hurt Jackie and I hope you will forgive and keep on posting here. You are a great person.

Shatner8's post upthread hits the nail on the head, IMO. This can and should be a place where everyone is welcome. I love reading posts that give an innovative approach or great solution to a problem I hadn't thought of. That usually is what comes from dissent from someone who is unhappy with the status quo. It doesn't matter whether you are perpetually optimistic with all things Elliott or like providing commentary/constructive criticism. I think there is still a certain level of defensiveness from what happened S5 here and that has turned into calling amazing/fellow Elliott fans trolls.....which IMHO is wrong.

It would be incredible to see more traffic here and new names begin to post regularly. Maybe all of us can come together as a community to help make that happen by addressing these issues? That way all people can feel like they are being heard and make the necessary changes that enhance the community. The wounds are still really apparent on both "sides", but maybe we can realize there is only one side as Elliott fans?

SMR, thank you for such a reasonable and level-headed and thoughtful response on this subject. Hopefully we can all look at how our posts may be percieved by others and this site can continue to flourish and better represent all of Elliott's fans.

I would like to address one paragraph specifically, though:

QUOTE
What happened to Jackie does not reflect well on the site and I feel bad for her. To be frank, this is why I do not post pictures of myself, family, or very personal information anywhere on the internet. I might say general things like being a College student, major etc, but not anything very personal. Not here, myspace, or any other social site I belong to. Etrain and these social sites are public domain with which anyone can access (as far as my knowledge). Anyway, I'm sorry that you were hurt Jackie and I hope you will forgive and keep on posting here. You are a great person.


I would never post very private information on a public site or one which could be accessed by everyone. The information I posted was on a private, pass-word protected site, and in an even more private sub-section of that site where very few people have access. It can't be located through google or searchengines, etc. But I get what you are saying, though, and apparently no place is as safe as it appears if it's on the internet. Also, I am a very forgiving person, but have always found it easier to forgive once an apology of some sort is extended.



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Sk8888
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 10:40 AM


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O4E,

I've read the link that you found and I like it much better.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1...ml?page=3&cat=4


I'd like to hear what others think as well before starting a new thread.
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realitymom
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 10:50 AM


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Man, I am one of the WORST to veer off topic of the OP's topic. It isn't intentional, I usually start off discussing the main topic, then something else comes to mind & I type it out. That is just how I am, quite scatterbrained apparently. I haven't had any pm's telling me I did something wrong, so rather than stress as to whether or not I have 'veered off topic' in a post or second guess everything I type, I will continue to type as I think it out.

I have no doubts if I disrupt a thread so horribly, that someone will be more than willing to tell me about it.

chloestrain.gif


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JackieB
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 11:01 AM


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QUOTE (realitymom @ Jun 2 2008, 10:50 AM)
Man, I am one of the WORST to veer off topic of the OP's topic. It isn't intentional, I usually start off discussing the main topic, then something else comes to mind & I type it out. That is just how I am, quite scatterbrained apparently. I haven't had any pm's telling me I did something wrong, so rather than stress as to whether or not I have 'veered off topic' in a post or second guess everything I type, I will continue to type as I think it out.

I have no doubts if I disrupt a thread so horribly, that someone will be more than willing to tell me about it.

chloestrain.gif

RM - I'm totally with you on this. I mean if the subject is entirely unrelated, that's one thing and I can see where something totally off topic would be a little odd. But I think most of what is being complained about here is simple progression of thought process. It's also what gives a somewhat more personal nature to a forum. For example, I remember once discussing a concert clip, someone noticed a different necklace on that clip, and the conversation totally turned towards the necklace, which brought to mind for someone else, the shirt which reminded someone else that another band member wore it once, etc. That is a total progression of thought, in my opinion, and what allows us to feel like we are sharing a conversation together, because that's how real life conversations work. If someone had to stop their stream of consciousness to start another thread about the necklace and yet another about the shirt and then another about the band sharing clothes, it would be impossible to follow.


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realitymom
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 11:09 AM


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QUOTE (JackieB @ Jun 2 2008, 11:01 AM)
[/QUOTE]
RM - I'm totally with you on this. I mean if the subject is entirely unrelated, that's one thing and I can see where something totally off topic would be a little odd. But I think most of what is being complained about here is simple progression of thought process. It's also what gives a somewhat more personal nature to a forum. For example, I remember once discussing a concert clip, someone noticed a different necklace on that clip, and the conversation totally turned towards the necklace, which brought to mind for someone else, the shirt which reminded someone else that another band member wore it once, etc. That is a total progression of thought, in my opinion, and what allows us to feel like we are sharing a conversation together, because that's how real life conversations work. If someone had to stop their stream of consciousness to start another thread about the necklace and yet another about the shirt and then another about the band sharing clothes, it would be impossible to follow.

Not to mention it would clutter the site something awful! It would be near impossible to even keep UP w/ threads if a new one were started for every different topic! I am of the mind that our mods don't mind conversational verring tho. Or, if they do, they have simply been ignoring much of the digression that has occurred here over the past couple years! lol


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onlyforelliott
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 12:14 PM


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RM and Jackie,

I think it is extremely difficult for one person to hijack a thread so I definitely wouldn't think much about it much less stress over it. Things would get boring in a hurry if one had to adhere to discussing a narrow topic. I love discussions. I love it when ideas ebb and flow and when I not only learn new information but I begin to see relationships that I had never thought of and I gain new insights into how people think.

I think it is fine if a topic starts in one place and through a natural progression ends up somewhere else as long as there is at least some relationship between the beginning and the end, I get a bit frustrated if a topic is taken over by a small group who then start talking ONLY to each other and not to all of us. It may not have been intentional and it may not be harmful but it's certainly not courteous. Suppose someone is angry at me (that happens sometimes smile.gif ) and I'm currently active in this thread. That person comes into this thread and confronts me with a totally different topic and asks me to defend something I put on or took off of my home page. That's what I call an attempt to hijack a topic. If that person is then joined by several others who have questions or opinions of my home page and the current subject becomes my home page instead of forum guidelines, I would conclude that this thread had been hijacked. The one time, and it was quite some time ago, that I believe someone intentionally tried to hijack a topic i started, other Etrainers responded and defended me more quickly than I could defend myself. I was grateful for the support and in return I tried to offer similar support when I feel someone could use it.
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JackieB
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 01:04 PM


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OFE,

I think something else that adds to the confusion is not everyone is on line or on the same topic at the same time. If there is a thread that starts to veer away from one subject towards another, but then someone joins the conversation and responds to one of the earlier posts in the thread, it may seem like their comment doesn't "fit" there, when actually it IS on topic because that's the part of the thread they are currently reading.

Or, the thread starts to veer in one direction between posters A, B and C while the same original post veers in a different direction for posters D, E and F. All of them are still technically on topic, but poster A may wonder what poster D is talking about and visa versa. This happens all the time and is not likely to be avoided with stricter guidelines. Sometimes all more rules do is make people say, "forget it" because they don't know if they are on topic or not, or in the right thread or not, so they just won't post at all. I think that's the last thing we need around here right now, considering that aren't that many active threads anyway.

Of course, it would be nice for all of us to loosely keep in mind, without a bunch of precise guidelines, that it makes the flow of the board easier to follow if we can make an effort to not go a completely different direction in every thread.


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itslate
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 02:07 PM


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I agree that sometimes, more than most, a topic does seem to veer off the subject line... noted at the top of each thread. And plenty of times, the subject may turn into a personal conversation between a few. I'm guilty of it too as most of us. Sometimes a topic though, becomes so off topic that it does need one of the mods to separate it, or join it with another similar post. It's really not a big deal. It happens in most boards I've visited in my Internet life.

Perhaps we need to add other forums reorganize the web site, or such to make room. Honestly, there must be an answer. I hate to see that this is so much discourse among Elliott fans. After all we have one thing in common, we love Elliott and his singing voice. Personally, I'm addicted to finding every bit of news related to his career. We all want to see him succeed.

But I must say, when the topics start turning too something so completely unrelated to the topic header, no matter how many shifts it took to get it there... something needs to be done. For example, the forum itself, news... needs to somewhat stick to news involving Elliott. Other forums tend to be a little more lenient, for example music and the man. Group huddle, where we talk about those things mostly unrelated to Elliott. Is that such a bad thing?

Everything in life has it's rules, no matter how small... there are always rules to follow, some unwritten, if only for etiquette sake.


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bigEfan
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 03:44 PM


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QUOTE (chloewannabee @ Jun 1 2008, 12:29 PM)
TROLLS?!!!!!
The last time I saw any trolls, was over on the scary boards, particularly towards the end of season 5. And they were out in force. So much so, that I am surprised they didnt start their own website"believeittoyoursouliamatroll.com"
And of course, every now and then, someone will post a thread with porn and such, but not very often. and it always gets deleted asap. But i can think of NO etrainer, past or present, who i would even consider troll-like. None. Just because someone agrees to disagree at times, in no way does that make them a troll. In my opinion, everyone here on the etrain is a die hard Elliott fan. Who would want to be here otherwise. so lets all take a deep breath, sit back,, relax, and make this site like it was back in the day. we can agree to disagree, thats what makes this world keep spinning.
chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif chloestrain.gif

I love you Chloe! awe.gif


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Sk8888
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 04:00 PM


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QUOTE (Sk8888 @ Jun 2 2008, 08:40 AM)
O4E,

I've read the link that you found and I like it much better.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1...ml?page=3&cat=4


I'd like to hear what others think as well before starting a new thread.

*crickets*

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nanab
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 04:00 PM


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QUOTE (bigEfan @ Jun 2 2008, 01:44 PM)
QUOTE (chloewannabee @ Jun 1 2008, 12:29 PM)
TROLLS?!!!!!
The last time I saw any trolls, was over on the scary boards, particularly towards the end of season 5. And they were out in force. So much so,  that I am surprised they didnt start their own website"believeittoyoursouliamatroll.com"
And of course, every now and then, someone will post a thread with porn and such, but not very often. and it always gets deleted asap. But i can think of NO etrainer, past or present, who i would even consider troll-like. None. Just because someone agrees to disagree at times, in no way does that make them a troll. In my opinion, everyone here on the etrain is a die hard Elliott fan. Who would want to be here otherwise. so lets all take a deep breath, sit back,, relax, and make this site like it was  back in the day. we can agree to disagree, thats what makes this world keep spinning.
chloestrain.gif  chloestrain.gif  chloestrain.gif  chloestrain.gif  chloestrain.gif  chloestrain.gif  chloestrain.gif  chloestrain.gif

I love you Chloe! awe.gif

Me too...Chloe grouphug2.gif grouphug2.gif grouphug2.gif chloestrain.gif


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onlyforelliott
Posted: Jun 2 2008, 08:59 PM


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I think that having guidelines will actually promote participation by more members rather than inhibit it. I make a distinction between a rule set in stone and a guideline which is less specific and allows for more flexibility. As I mentioned a few posts up, there are some forums that have a rule about the same person making consecutive posts. There is absolutely no leeway there and no problems in determining if this rule is broken. A guideline in almost all forums that have guidelines is that personal attacks are not allowed. That's a much harder call to make as what some of us view as a personal attack others of us view as a difference of opinion which should not be taken personally. This calls for judicious and fair application of the guideline and if administered properly and consistently over time becomes standard practice.

The computer geek smile.gif had to ask SK8888 what **crickets** meant. rotfl02.gif
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LilRedDevilLizzy
Posted: Jun 3 2008, 06:58 AM


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Threads verring off topic: Like the locked thread in OTR where we were suppose to be able to voice our feelings, just got locked because someone took offense (shocking right) to something that a poster said. Tsk tsk.

Let me say this and than I am completely done, because it is obvious the site will be run however the mods feel is best (and well it should be) but they are all for sweeping things under the rug.

SK888, noone started anything just to be able to bring up other issues. They were voiced out of frustration when our original comments/questions/concerns went the way of being told we were misbehaving and implying that we were doing something wrong. I twas frustration at the lack of actual communication that the other stuf came out.

And someone said that it was better that Jackies "issue" was discussed in OTR so that others didnt know. Why? So that people didn't know some E-trainers misbehaved? Right, we wouldn't want that to get out.

And Jabu was justified in what he said. The manager of this site blew off the manager of the other site by saying there were other things to deal with. BS. Yes everyone was grieving, and noone knows how any one was actually grieving, but it was a BS answer to the issue.

Everyone wants everyone to just get along. That would be wonderful, but don't just blame us five that were accused of trolling for the issues that are going on here. Noone wants to here anything upsetting or questionable, how the hell can this place grow and keep growing without working out the kinks? Working out the issues. It can't.
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onlyforelliott
Posted: Jun 3 2008, 07:58 AM


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Sk8888,

I found another excellent reference on guidelines.

Here is a beginning excerpt from their first guideline. Since this forum is for computer developers, I think it is significant that it is the veryffirst guideline.

reference: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette


Please do not use these forums for personal disputes, heated debates, flame wars etc. You are expected to treat each other with respect in the forums and take any personal disputes to a private mode of discussion off the forums.



Edited to correct a typo.

This post has been edited by onlyforelliott on Jun 3 2008, 07:59 AM
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itslate
Posted: Jun 3 2008, 09:55 AM


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There are guidlines listed in Off the Record.

Please read: http://etrainstation.com/index.php?showtopic=5949

OFE, I like that it includes use PM's.


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